Mobile Heroes Uncensored by Liftoff brings you the latest industry news, entertainment and insights from across the app marketing industry. Hosted by journalists John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz, we go in-depth with brand and performance marketers at the forefront of marketing.

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Jun 15, 2022

Privacy That Doesn’t Suck: Privacy Sandbox on Android

Is it possible to have privacy that doesn’t suck for marketers? While SKAdNetwork and iOS 14.5 might not fit that billing, Privacy Sandbox on Android just might.

What does it include? What will change? What will get worse, and what will get better. In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we interview three experts to get their insights:

They tell us what Privacy Sandboxes’ most pleasant surprises are, what the biggest concerns about losing GAID are, and whether Topics API is robust enough for accurate targeting. All that and more. 

45 min

Gadi Eliashiv: This is almost like your second chance for some folks. So I've seen really massive companies that, as of a few months ago, still are really lagging behind with SKAdNetwork, and maybe slowed their spending, etc., which is way too late, right? Because we've known about SKAN for a long time. So maybe Google is like a do-over, right? You get two years now, so make sure you build that team, be curious. And I know it's early for a lot of us, but, like, starting early I think is important. So anyone that missed the SKAN train, hop on the, I don't know, the PSA train.

John Koetsier: How will Privacy Sandbox on Android change mobile marketing? Hello and welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." I'm John Koetsier, your co-host with Peggy Anne Salz. And today we're chatting about Google's SKAdNetwork, sort of, Google's ATT kind of. It's Privacy Sandbox for Android of course and it's the certainty of the deprecation of the Google ad ID. It's also the next shoe that's dropping in the privacy revolution that is sweeping through mobile advertising and attribution. What is it going to change? It seems better than SKAN, but what will marketers lose? And are those things that they'll gain?

Peggy, who are we discussing this with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, John, I was thinking it's almost like a comeback, you know, bringing the band back together, because think about it. When we started, this was the topic. We were talking about a world without IDFA, and we were almost the same companies, remember?

John Koetsier: How long ago was it? Was it half a year? I forget. It was a year almost or something like that. I mean, it was a cool conversation, and yeah, similar topic, privacy, mobile attribution, mobile measurement, mobile marketing. Now of course it's Android rather than iOS.

Peggy Anne Salz: And privacy. It stays consistent. It will follow us, John. So, let me tell you about our lineup. We have Gadi Eliashiv at Singular. So Gadi is the CEO of Singular, the mobile attribution company that led the shift to SKAN on iOS. He is a coder and a developer at heart, but also a surprisingly skilled woodworker, and he moved recently to Austin, Texas from San Francisco and now, yes, you guessed it, getting in the mood, driving a pickup truck and owns a tractor. Really, Gadi?

Gadi Eliashiv: Yes.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yes, that will do it. Yes, that's certainly convincing. And Sergio Serra at InMobi. You were around the first time around, Sergio, and you're back again. You lead product at InMobi, where you have had no fewer than six roles in just over eight years, so you either love to mix it up, or possibly suffering from ADHD. I'm not quite sure. You live in LA, but you also went to school in Dubai and Italy, and his co-workers say he is super hardworking plus extremely knowledgeable. Shall we test him, John?

John Koetsier: Absolutely. That's the point. That's the plan.

Sergio Serra: Yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay. And finally, we have Matt Ellinwood at Liftoff. Matt is Director of Product Management at Vungle, which of course has now merged with Liftoff. It is Liftoff. He has a unique background with history both in technology advertising, but also automotive repair industry. So you guys can talk to Gadi there, telecoms. And again doing our research on our guest, John, one co-worker says Matt's brilliance is only outweighed by his passion and can-do attitude. That's exciting. I want to hear more. Welcome to you all.

John Koetsier: I'm sure he was paid for that endorsement. I mean...

Peggy Anne Salz: It was recommendation, I was like, if I write this recommendation for like [inaudible 00:03:46] for me.

John Koetsier: Here it is, copy-paste. No, I'm just joking. Nobody does that on LinkedIn. That never happens, absolutely not. Matt, welcome. Gadi, welcome. Sergio, welcome. This is going to be awesome. Looking forward to it. Great to have you all. Let's maybe start here. There is a lot to like, and I'm calling it PSA, Privacy Sandbox for Android. What was the most pleasant surprise that you saw? We'll start with Gadi.

Gadi Eliashiv: Quite simply, I think it didn't suck. It's actually quite good. That was the most pleasant thing about it.

John Koetsier: Sergio, you?

Sergio Serra: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think I will definitely second Gadi. You know, two main things from my side. One, how proactive Google was in reaching out to the ad tech players, despite what we saw with Apple. I mean, if I speak to personal experience, we have been working with Google on these for the past few months, roughly. And the second point is the quality of these changes, and, you know, specifically, I'm a very big fan of attribution reporting as a functionality, and then yes, we will talk more about that.

John Koetsier: What about you, Matt? What were you pleasantly surprised by?

Matt Ellinwood: Yeah, you know, one of the things that we noted was Google's approach is very transparent. A ton of supporting documentation. They've been very frank about what the timeline is to give us a long heads-up and allow for advertisers and also all of us to prepare, which is, you know, kind of a contrast with some of the other industry players we've seen. So that's nice. I mean, I think we expected that, but I can't say we expected it necessarily to the level that they've done it. And I think they're serious about this feedback period. Those are the things I'd illuminate just in terms of the approach that is a bit of a surprise, and I think most of us in the industry appreciate.

Peggy Anne Salz: So it was a pleasant surprise. It had documentation. It didn't suck, as Gadi said, but of course, it still needs some work. One area where you think PSA needs a bit of work yet? I'll start with you, Gadi.

Gadi Eliashiv: Yes. I'll just compliment the documentation. I think that they need to do some more iteration on it. The first draft was rather complicated and technical and kind of missed some things. And when we did our first kind of deep-dive, we had to guess how certain things would work. But one thing I would say that Google's done amazingly, they already iterated on these docs so quickly. We've seen already, like, two updates. I think we're kind of tracking the word changes in the doc. And they added illustrations. They even it's funny. Some of the things we were guessing they actually added up as official documentation. And I'm happy we guessed it correctly. Like, we're trying to figure out, like, how, you know, multiple ad networks will work together, etc. So there's still a few concepts there that are needed to wrap your head around. And so I'd say the documentation is definitely one area that, you know, keep iterating on it would be wonderful.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay. Matt, you spoke about the documentation. That's what you called out as being the highlight. What about where it needs work? What scenario, Matt?

Matt Ellinwood: Well, again, kind of a high-level comment that I worry about is, documentation is very thorough, but the solutions in general, it's fairly complex. The complexity level is high. The sophistication needed to really understand all the pieces and put them together is pretty significant. And, you know, one of the things we learned, the experience working through a SKAdNetwork, for example, is, you know, our developer partners don't necessarily have a tremendous amount of time to commit to this. I think that's going to be the challenge is just working through the complexity with the resources that our marketers have to work with and getting down to it. Now, the flip side of that is, again, there's a lot of lead time built into this. But I still just kind of see the complexity itself as something of a challenge in managing the shift.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's rather interesting, because Sergio, I just saw today. I was going through some emails I usually don't look at because I'm not a developer, but that may be of the reasons for InMobi with its University. Do you agree with Matt that that's an area that needs some work and some clarification?

Sergio Serra: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think what is a bit worrying to me is the privacy API speed in general, right? Because it requires fundamental changes all across the ecosystem. So think of the simple fact that the auction will now run on the device itself, right? So they did mention that in the documentation, but I will be more keen to understand how it will exactly work rather than stating the SSPs and other SDKs we need to figure out, right. So I'm sure more detail and more information will come. But at the moment, this is what I would like to see as an improvement from PSA.

John Koetsier: Super interesting. I'm glad to see there is some room for improvement, because, of course, there's a lot there. And a lot of people have been pleasantly surprised with it. One thing that's been interesting to me is that it's sending a lot of postbacks. Obviously, for individual winners, in a sense, the ad network that contributed to an install, you're getting multiple postbacks, but it's also sending multiple postbacks to contributors in some sense. Do you see an opportunity for sort of a multi-touch approach here, a multi-touch light almost, either inside Privacy Sandbox or with data from Privacy Sandbox? Sergio, why don't we start with you on that one?

Sergio Serra: Sure. So I think even though Google is in the business of attribution, I think in this case, they will rather provide the tools to MMPs to actually do that. And think about, you know, there is a specific pattern where you can set up multiple URLs where you want the conversion to be sent. And my understanding is that the conversion will go even like to competing networks, right? So if two or more networks competed and both got the install, the attribution will go to them, but then it will be up to a superpartner, so to the MMP, to determine which one actually is accountable for that. And for me, just zooming out a little bit, but it's…like the whole Privacy Sandbox concept probably is a good thing for MMPs, like much better than SKAN. And I'm also curious to understand what Gadi thinks about that, but, like, that's my personal opinion. I think they will let someone else do the multi-touch attribution.

John Koetsier: Let's turn to Gadi then.

Gadi Eliashiv: Yeah, I think maybe the first thing I would say is what Matt said about complexity. It is a complex solution. It's one of these things you kind of need to think about for a second to make sure you understand how it works. But I also, in a kind of selfish way, I see the complexity as our opportunity to simplify, and that's kind of what we've been doing for customers, honestly, on SKAN, because SKAN is also a beast to understand and testing is, like, almost impossible, and we did a lot of things just to be able to test it.

But back to your question, I'm not sure if I call it MTA. So really, in a way, it depends on how you define it. If you define the ability to see multiple touch points in dedupe, then yes. In a way, the way that this mechanism is now going to work's almost like every network became a SAN, a self-attributing network, and I'll explain why. It's not so much about the network's chose to do that, but, in a way, today a self-attributing network just sees their own clicks and views and they kind of take credit, right? But it's disconnected from the rest. And so now, this model means that every network will now only see their own data in their postbacks, which is a good signal for the network, but it's not sufficient because they don't know if they want necessarily. And that's where all the chaining that Sergio talked about, it is very interesting. And, in fact, it's one of the iterations Google did. They literally called out the MMP use case and they said, "This is how it should work," which is amazing, because we wrote a blog post a bit sooner that said the same thing. So basically, yes. The MMPs will play a role where you'll get multiple touch points, and then the MMP will, in a way, see all these different touch points and the last one will be prioritized. And you can even control it based on the customer's requirements.

But it's not true MTA in the form that Google will tell you, "Oh, there were like 20 different touch points. You're going to get all of them." There's still a selection algorithm, very basic, based on priorities. You know, do you want views or do you want clicks? And based on that, they'll choose the last one. So that's why it's sort of a yes or no. But at least you get deduping and you can configure that. That's really nice way that they built out the API.

John Koetsier: I love the nuanced response there. That makes a ton of sense, and also it ignores the entire outside world, right? Like you saw a billboard, a friend talk to you about it. I mean, there's so much more going on in all of our lives. But every network becoming a SAN, that's the first I've heard of that, and it's interesting. Sergio's eyes are like, "Oh, that sounds good. I can just claim victory on every impression. Yay." Matt, your thoughts?

Matt Ellinwood: The only thing I'd have to add to that is our takeaway was something that Gadi keyed in on, which was there's very clearly this continued role for the MMP within this framework. And so, we just expect for that to continue to be a driver in terms of how, you know, advertisers and ad networks and MMPs are essentially, you know, getting to attribution. And that carve-out for the MMP role was, from our point of view, like, really clear within the sandbox. So I echo what he said and expect for that to be part of the go forward.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that we're trying to look at it in a very balanced way. But at the end of the day, it is about losing GAID, losing Google Ad ID. What's your biggest concern about that? I'll start with Gadi.

Gadi Eliashiv: Yeah, I was starting to think how to answer that honestly, because, like, you know, am I concerned about GAID going away? Maybe part of me already realizes it has to happen, right? It was bound to happen. And so, now, it's more can't... You know, I wish I would apply that logic in everything in my life, but you can't really be afraid of the unavoidable stuff, right? You kind of know it's going to happen. So, to me, the first reaction was like, "Oh, wow, it's actually, like you guys asked, it doesn't look that bad, given what PSA is going to do or Privacy Sandbox is going to do." So I wouldn't say concern was the first thing that drove me.

But then diving deeper and also seeing what happens with SKAdNetwork, I am worried a bit about the area of fraud. So one of the challenges when you put everything in the device is that you don't necessarily have as much information from, you know, the MMP or the advertiser standpoint to observe the individual touch points because it all happens on the device. And so today, with SKAdNetwork, and I would assume the same could happen with this, what if, you know, ad networks keep injecting views or clicks in a way and would trick the API? Like, that's areas that, because it's such a black box in the device, would be harder to debug. And that's where GAID was actually useful because advertisers could say I expect to see the GAID. It was random enough. It was hard for people to spoof it, even though it was possible, but that's one area I would say is a concern is, you know, fraud.

Peggy Anne Salz: Fraud is a concern. It was inevitable and coming to accept it. Matt, what you would like to maybe add to that?

Matt Ellinwood: I think fraud is a really good callout as kind of a tangential or orthogonal impact of losing the ID. Some of the things that I think about recently, and I would add IP address to the conversation. You know, it seems there's a signal within Google's framework that IP address is going to see some restrictions. We've seen that within Apple and the SKAdNetwork and expect more of it. The impact there is that we have uncertainty around is that there are use cases like fraud and others where we use some of these signals for innocuous reasons that we need them for that's good for everybody that we're essentially going to lose. And so, you know, we need to suss those out. We need to find alternatives and we need to have an answer, and not lose some capabilities or some reporting that we currently have. That doesn't's not a privacy issue. It's more just something that we need in the course of running and optimizing the business that suddenly becomes harder as an unintended kind of second-degree consequence. So, you know, I think that's real. And we'll be adjusting some things we know about, some things that we probably discover along the way as a result of those changes.

Peggy Anne Salz: Sergio, do you have anything to add as well?

Sergio Serra: Well, yeah. I think the only point I would like to add here is that despite what we are seeing with ATT, right, here is really a Boolean. So from day X, Google Advertising ID will not be longer accessible, right. So what this means is that... See, in case of ATT, you had two types of bias. You had the performance bias being super proactive, trying to get there as they have stuff in place as soon as possible. And then you had brand buyers, like "Oh, yeah, we will try to support SKAdNetwork. It doesn't actually serve our purposes." You know what? There will be still some updating supply, right? And that's exactly what happened, because you see the eCPMs on updating supply going to the roof. And, at the end of the day, brands are spending much lesser into opted-out supply.

Now, what happens here is that you will only have opted-out supply practically. So there is not a fallback plan as such. And to me, either these privacy APIs work or we will be left only with contextual, which is not necessarily bad. But that's a very strong point to think about, right? And one other minor thing that, to me, I'm a big fan of, you know, templates and user experience is that you will no longer be able to do creative optimization at the user ID level, which today you can do, but tomorrow, will go to a cohort level optimization in the best-case scenario. So these are two things that could be added to what Matt and Gadi were saying. I second the fraud point. But fortunately, Google also added support recently, I think, two quarters ago to App Set IDs, which is the counterpart of IDFV, right? So that's probably something that we can still leverage from a fraud perspective rather than advertising perspective.

John Koetsier: That's kind of a good segue, because a big change in Privacy Sandbox is targeting, right. And Topics API is one of the technologies there. Sergio, maybe stick with you on this one. What do you think of Topics API? Is it robust enough? What does it need to make it better?

Sergio Serra: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, we can still just comment on the surface. But from what we could see, I think the idea is very good because it capitalizes on interspace advertising that has been there, like, for a long time, right. But today, for me, as InMobi wanted to build interspace advertising to be siloed to the ads I can see from my side, right, or I should say, to the opportunity I can see from my side. Now, the platform doing that is much better because you will have now 360-degree view into the user journey so far.

So I think the idea is good. They also introduced some logic for making sure you cannot really pinpoint the user. And again, I think someone can just go and read up the spec. Probably we don't need to deep dive more into that. But the outcome is that you will be given topics that are very, you know, consistent in nature or you can use for your targeting purposes. There are a couple of problems in my mind, though. So one problem is how many categories will be there, right? So I personally really hope that Android, and specifically Google, being a fan of open source, will really just build on top of the IAB taxonomy, especially 3.0 is exhaustive enough. So probably for standard consistency, it might make sense.

The second point is that, of course, this might favour the big players, right? Because apparently, you are given access to that specific taxonomy only if you previously called the Topics API from an app that belongs to that category. So, of course, the higher your scale, the higher your probability to get to see that specific category, right? And lastly, I will say adoption in general is going to be a friction. So either the whole ad tech ecosystem adopts that, or, again, we will be in a position where, you know, targeting will be very limited.

Again, the taxonomy to me is key, and then the fact that big players will have an advantage. And then let's see how interspace advertising will pan out in general.

John Koetsier: Sergio, I really appreciate that comment because one of the things that I've been agonizing over is generally big players in industries create change that benefits them. And I've been looking hard in Privacy Sandbox for how does Google benefit here? Because of course, they're trying to reinvent attribution. They're trying to add privacy, all those things. And absolutely, I believe in that. I believe that Apple is doing those things for similar reasons as well. And yet, you're probably not going to do it as a market or ecosystem leader in a way that doesn't advantage you, or at least doesn't disadvantage you.

Well, with scale, that's interesting. And if you can't target super well in a privacy-safe way with Privacy Sandbox, which does get, let's assume, fully adopted, then maybe you have to go to the big players who have all that first-party data like a Google or a Facebook, or others, or something like that. So that's interesting. I won't ask you guys to comment on that. I understand many of you are in public companies and ruffle feathers and all that stuff. But, Matt, back to the original question, Topics API. Is it robust enough? Do you see enough in there to do the targeting that you need to do?

Matt Ellinwood: Honestly, right now, I think it's hard to say. I think that the two big questions are, "Okay, we've got an example taxonomy. What's the reach? I mean, how much scale can we drive with this?" And then, "Is that going to be knowable without testing?" And then, of course, I mean, does it drive performance? A brand new targeting solution. We won't know until we get out there and test it and can find that both of those things are lacking. So it's just really, really just full of unknowns at the moment from our point of view.

John Koetsier: Wow, not scary at all.

Matt Ellinwood: Well, you know, I mean, certainly both of those things could come back as fantastic. It's just something that's brand new that we'll have to explore and build some testing around. I think Sergio's points about transparency and control and centralization of that data are all absolutely correct. So it's going to be an interesting one to watch.

Peggy Anne Salz: So a lot of open questions, and maybe just a wait-and-see. But one thing that is clear is targeting and matching of ads to humans is now done on device. So the big question remains, what does PSA change or how does PSA change what we think of as an ad network here? I'd love to hear...I'd like to hear actually you, Matt, to start.

Matt Ellinwood: Yeah, I thought about this one, Peggy, and I don't have a short, pithy response. I don't know that it is necessarily going to change how we think of an ad network necessarily. One of the things that stuck out at me, though, amongst all of these solutions is the importance of having software on the device. I think that that's notable in terms of the shift to more and more on-device interactions with the framework. But, you know, the ecosystem players and the role of the MMPs for measurement being in the place that they are, you know, we didn't see a tremendous risk in terms of the framework, you know, kind of shaking up the way that the pieces of the ecosystem fit together and the roles that we play, as much as, you know, a solution that would disintermediate, you know, some of those existing relationships and roles that are played. And with this Google approach, you know, honestly, I think there's less risk of that type of upheaval. We did note that the SDK runtime solution is potentially a really big change and shift in terms of control and oversight over software that does get into the apps. And that's an interesting change.

But again, if everybody's doing what they should do, and are saying that they will, it shouldn't result in wholesale upheaval changes in terms of how the ecosystem fits together.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay, so not massive upheaval, but some change. Gadi, how do you think that will change what we think of as an ad network, the role that an ad network plays?

Gadi Eliashiv: I think that one of the realizations I had, because we've gone through some of this stuff with SKAdNetwork and from our vantage point of an MMP, and there were a lot of questions about the role of the MMP, etc., and I think, in many cases, the role of the ad network. Eventually to make the solutions work, there's probably like 50 different mechanisms that need to operate. And if one of those mechanisms is changed from one method to another, it doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of it should change or is even possible to change. And even if you read the Google Docs, they clearly specify when there's an ad network or an ad tech vendor, they call it, right, needs to come in and what do they need to supply and what do they get back, and how they all coordinate and where the MMP comes in. And so, really you realize that what you're getting is very simplistic APIs that still need to rely on layers of layers of value and capabilities, like, I don't know, even serving the ads or having a concept of a campaign, or having a real-time server to respond to that on-device Google API.

And, you know, I could tell you, in our case of MMPs, the amount of work that we need to do to make SKAdNetwork operable is massive, right? And so there were folks who said, "Oh, well, now, you got an on-device database that says who won the attribution." And I'm like, "Yeah, that was always the easiest part, right? Like, it's everything else, the making sense of that data, that's the real challenge, right?" Like, I wish, you know, all I had to do was match an IDFA to a click, but that's not really it, right? It's everything around that. So I guess the same applies. I kind of feel like it's same for ad networks, and, you know, if you kind of look into the API, you realize, yeah, you're kind of getting a very thin layer of capabilities that you got to build a real product on.

Peggy Anne Salz: Sergio, massive change and upheaval, or just a bit?

Sergio Serra: See, I will give you my Nostradamus prediction, given my current understanding, right? So, first of all, I still want to believe that the cases where DSPs directly talk to the publishers will be limited in nature. So there will definitely be always a role of an SSP there. So with that in mind, the good news is that we still have...we already have in the ecosystem, and specifically in the programmatic pipes, a way to send multiple bids. So what I'm thinking is that there will be more transparency between the DSP and the SSP in that the DSP will communicate upfront a set of campaigns and demand they have in the given point in time that is after specific retargeting segments or specific topics.

Now, what will happen is that the SSP will get all these potential campaigns/bids, and will decide through some deep learning model, which ones for that ad opportunities could be more suited, right. So what this means is that you end up sending maybe four to five responses to the device, and then, based on the information that will be only accessible on device, right, that might be some geo data, that could be the taxonomy we just spoke about for topics or the retargeting segments, so FLEDGE. Then based on that, you will hopefully get one of these bids that will be a winner, based on pricing, based on relevancy. So this really depends on the criteria that will be employed on the device.

But, to me, the role of an SSP there will be to optimize the win rate for the DSP, and the DSP will have to expose their demand. And then of course, maybe out of these five bids I just told, three will be selected based on these contextual...actually I should say not contextual, again, on the FLEDGE segments and topics that the DSPs are after and maybe two just on the contextual, so at runtime itself. So again, all speculations, but I think there will be some fundamental changes on both sides, so supply and demand.

John Koetsier: It's almost like these people know what they're talking about, hey, Peggy. Thank you, Sergio. That is a great answer. I really appreciate it. And meanwhile, the marketers that are listening to us are going like, "Oh, man, all these freaking details. Holy Mother, these different pieces of the ad tech ecosystem and measurement." You know what? I've got a stack of cash here, and I want a bunch of users there. What's going to change for me in this new reality? What will Privacy Sandbox change for marketers? Matt, let's give you first crack at that.

Matt Ellinwood: Yeah, I mean, the hard part is the uncertainty and navigating...

John Koetsier: Matt, I'm looking for the answer, "Nothing. It's all easy. No worries. Not a problem. We'll do everything. We'll take care of it all. Marketers just have to sign the check and it's all good." That's the answer I want.

Matt Ellinwood: Well, you know, ultimately, that's what we're going to do as providers for sure. The here to there is interesting. Again, I think that navigating the uncertainty is a bit of a challenge. At the end of the day, though, we're going to have a different type of postback and we're going to need to evolve the measurement and the KPIs and understand that different type of postback within the context of what we've been doing all along. And it's not going to be the same as it has been. It'll be an evolution and a change. And it's likely to look like a performance hit early, I would assume.

Again, our transition time with Google's approach is just different than what we've experienced in the iOS ecosystem, so I think the disruption is going to be less. But this is going to shift us into a way of understanding the postback data that's coming back from Google in a way that's different than what we're used to as marketers, and so we're going to have to understand it and we're going to have to develop a point of view about our performance relative to this framework, and it's going to be a bit of a change in evolution from what we've been used to doing.

John Koetsier: Let's turn to Gadi, and that's an interesting answer, Matt, because, I mean, you don't're telling like it is. It's going to be change, and you're talking to an ecosystem that has dealt with an extreme level of change over the last year, and that's been painful. And it's been very painful change, and it's probably going to get more painful for some marketers who have sort of slipped by using probabilistic fingerprinting methods and sort of worked out and it was okay, and that probably door's shutting. That door is closing very, very soon. So there's more change coming, Gadi. What do you tell marketers when they know, they ask, you know, "What's it going to change for me in my life and my world?"

Gadi Eliashiv: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's going to be a ton of implications that are maybe too long to list. But if I had to provide a short answer, I do believe that if this will be done right, both by Google and us... We mentioned earlier the feedback. I think that's amazing. And we do have a chance to talk to Google about this stuff all the time. If we do this right, then not a lot should change, right? I do believe we can see a future where privacy is real and it's here. But marketers can do their job and companies can grow. And seeing what PSA offers on v1, or it's even, like, version draft, whatever that is, is already a ton. It makes me very optimistic. I don't want marketers to ignore those changes and kind of, you know, forget about it than being different. They got to think about what that means for the company.

But on the flip side, I do think that, unlike SKAN... When you looked at SKAN 1.0, you know, you almost had a heart attack. It's like this can't, this is insane, right. And then they did SKAN 2.0 and 3.0 and it got better. But this is not the case. This already started great and with the few iterations I've seen, it's getting better. So I do think marketers will be able to do their job. And, you know, more specifically, you know, one of the areas that is most obvious might not be able to optimize on a device level, which is painful. But a lot of marketers do like to optimize in the things they can control, like my creative or my campaign or my targeting. And I think a lot of that will be possible, right? And so that's fantastic and it's going to be more powerful than what you get from SKAN. So, yeah, hopefully, you know, if done right, not a lot is going to change.

John Koetsier: Sergio, let's hear your answer to this. I mean, Matt basically said the road is long and hard, but we're going to get there and marketers will be okay at the end. Gadi says if we do our job right, then it won't be that big a deal, hopefully, and you'll have lots of opportunity to do cool stuff as well. What's your thought?

Sergio Serra: Well, I think just to Gadi's point, right? I believe Google has an immense advantage, which is the second-mover advantage, right? So yes, when we also...the first iteration of SKAN, actually the first version of SKAN, we were all like, "This is not going to fly. This will never work, right?" But the fundamental difference now is that Google is not offering an alternative as we said at the beginning. So what this really means is that, in case of SKAN, why it didn't work. It didn't work because it didn't get adopted because there were alternatives, right. So you could still have the device ID. Now Google is practically withdrawing that support, and so you're left just with that option for attribution purposes.

So Google cannot make big mistakes. But that's also the best way to force into adoption of a specific product, right? So as far as the fundamental changes are concerned, I will say first one is that fingerprinting for the first time is going to be an option for sure, right? SDK runtime is an example, but then think about also the previous examples still from Privacy Sandbox, which is, you know, the privacy budget. And also, you guys might have heard of client teams, right? So at the end of the day, they are making a life for someone that wants to do a fingerprint key pretty much impossible, right? So, for the first time, buyers will have to really comply to the only option Google is leaving them with. Now, is it an extensive option? Yes, it looks so. Do they have alternatives? No. So that's a fundamental change in my mind.

And again, I think another change is that it kind of gives back a lot of power to MMPs. Like to me, when I compare PSA to SKAN, and don't get me wrong, I absolutely think that MMPs for SKAN add immense value because of the conversion value handling and all these things on reporting, but I think for PSA, it's going to be even more important. So definitely, there are many changes in the way we understand marketing today from a buyer perspective, but I agree that if we execute correctly, there should be a smooth transition for everybody.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay, so not so painful for marketers if we get it right, not so much change there. But at the end of the day, they don't just want to say, "I want to acquire," they always want to up their game. They always want to optimize those campaigns. What are some of the changes that are going to be happening with PSA? Because you said it yourself, Sergio, you know, creative optimization is going to be different. So I'll kick it off with you. Deep Dive with me here. What is going to change in campaign optimization?

Sergio Serra: Yeah, so for me, first of all, we need to see if interspace advertising works in a good way, at least as good as user ID targeting, right? So I don't think the answer is yes. There would be multiple iterations in the way you target. You know, FLEDGE is another option, and yes, retargeting so will be possible. But at the end of the day, what I will definitely tell everybody is, whenever you are given an option to test, and Google will make this available to everybody very soon, right? Just go ahead and test because today you have an organic control bucket, which is your device ID. Tomorrow you won't. So you have to take the opportunity to fine-tune today. Right? So that's a fundamental shift in my mind.

And yeah, the other thing is that you will need to optimize based on contextual as well. And that's something that's happening already in iOS, but probably not at the scale that everybody will want to see, because, again, there is optionality here, even though the device ID is scarce in nature now, still, it's an option. So you see these massively CPMs compared to opted out supply. So these are the fundamental changes in my mind in the way company optimization will work. There might be, of course, much higher number of ramifications. But if I was to summarize, these are the most relevant ones to me.

Peggy Anne Salz: More testing, context being king. Gadi, what do you have to add to that?

Gadi Eliashiv: I have to say, you know, I agree. I think Sergio brings a really interesting angle, which is, you know, I oftentimes, at least in my job, focus a lot on the measurement reporting. But this framework has this dependency where the adoption is not, just do you use it for attribution or not? But can it really replace GAID so that marketing can be effective, even all the way from the ad network, not even just the advertiser, but can ad networks do their job? So I think that's a really interesting point.

I would like to believe that marketers will be able to, based on what I've seen, report on a campaign or a keyword or creative and make those optimization decisions, etc., and have the KPIs that they're used to and, you know, the support for longer cohorts, things that, you know, are really difficult to do in SKAN. Like, you know, it's funny, we just released this product that works really hard just to kind of reconstruct cohorts on SKAN, because it just doesn't exist. So we will be out of the box, which is good. But then the question is, you know, you have a campaign. Can the ad network even target the right people to begin with? So I think that's a really interesting dependency that you have within the Privacy Sandbox Spec between all those different pieces, right? Where attribution might be wonderful, but if the targeting sucks then we're kind of stuck. So yeah, it's my only other, you know, addition here is that from a reporting side, it looked good, but I agree with the dependency there.

Peggy Anne Salz: Quite a hurdle, because if you are targeting fine, you're optimizing, but you don't know if the targeting is really working. Matt, what are your thoughts here? What can you add here?

Matt Ellinwood: Yeah, good comments. Not a lot to add from my point of view. Just to build on what Gadi said too about the good news for optimization here that I would share, the difference with Google's approach is the level of reporting that we can get that feeds back to the campaign and the creative, the restrictions are manageable from the marketer's point of view and are really signals that we need for optimization. It's a very stark difference from what happens with SKAdNetwork, to Gadi's point, where we just, you know, have these incredible restrictions on creative and campaign-level reporting. And that'll be a big win for continuing to be able to drive optimization forward. So that was good news in the mix here, for sure.

Peggy Anne Salz: That is good.

John Koetsier: Nice. Nice. So we have to draw this to a close. And we're going to ask you each for your top tip for marketers in this emerging and growing age of privacy. Just before I do that, though, I got to hit on a few things. I mean, you know, it's really interesting to me. We're going to see this come out. We know Google is committed to it. The GAID is going away, but there's a whole world out there that is Android Open Source, China, tons of India, other places as well. Will they adopt that? We've seen other sort of targeting mechanisms, ad measurement mechanisms, [inaudible 00:39:29], for instance, in China, which didn't continue, right? You know, what will we see in other areas of the world? And that maybe doesn't matter so much to a marketer in Europe or in North America, but globally, it kind of does.

It's also interesting that targeting is changing, and Sergio hit on that, right? He said, hey, we're using behavioural data, right? Now you're going to have to use contextual data as well, right? There's of course intent data, which if you get search information that works for players that do search, and there's demographic data if you have that information, first-party data, right? But that behavioural data that people have been used to with an IDFA or a GAID, that is kind of...that historical behavioural data is kind of going away.

Well, let's finish off here. And we'll start with you, Gadi. Your top tip for mobile marketers in an era of increasing privacy restrictions?

Gadi Eliashiv: Yeah, I'm going to recycle. This might be the 400th webinar I've done on privacy in the last few years, and I've always stayed consistent with my tip because I think it holds true. Maybe I'll change it a bit. But my tip was always like, you know, build some sort of a task force in your company to tackle these changes because they're so broad. And it's not just the marketing team and their problems, it's the CEO's problem, and we're seeing it in the stock market as well. Like, this company is getting even...regardless of the macroeconomics, like if you're slowing down and you don't know how you're going to grow, don't ignore other problems. So set up a task force.

And the only thing I would add is, this is almost like a second chance for some folks. So I've seen really massive companies that, as of a few months ago, still are really lagging behind with SKAdNetwork and maybe slow down their spending, etc., which is way too late, right, because we've known about SKAN for a long time. So maybe Google is like a do-over, right? You get two years now, so make sure you build that team, be curious. And I know it's early for a lot of us, but like, starting early, I think, is important. So anyone that missed the SKAN train, hop on the, I don't know, the PSA train.

John Koetsier: The SKAN train, love it. Sergio, your top tip for mobile marketers in an era of increasing privacy?

Sergio Serra: Sure. So I think I'm going to reiterate a couple of things I've already covered. But one thing for sure is that whenever possible, start testing. As I said, right, you have a control, experiment, experiment, experiment. So second thing is give emphasis, more emphasis into creatives. Of course, user ID creative optimization, one, be possible. To me, hey, a beautiful creative is just objectively beautiful, right? So you increase your odds for at least high level iterations, like clicks, and then, you know, website landing, right. And finally, and that's a tricky one, but I will say, if you're a publisher, for sure, just start making changes too, gather as much data as possible about your user, because first-party data is going to be gold, right?

And on the same side, I will say on the demand, whenever possible, find ways to plug your first-party data into pockets where it's allowed. Now, again, we don't know the stance of Google, whenever GAID won't be there. I don't know if you can use first-party data across channels, like, you know that we have a strong stance from Apple, but, to me, first-party data is going to be gold, so for sure you have to work with that. And last one, just stay on top of these updates, because you don't want to come unprepared. So by virtue of listening to these, you know, videos or podcasts or reading up articles, it's very important to be on top.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. And Matt, you get last kicks, what is your top tip for mobile marketers entering this new age?

Matt Ellinwood: Yeah, not to echo what's been said, but I would zero in on you have to budget. You have to budget for these changes. However, you're going to get organized to do it, like, it's work and you have to budget ahead of time to make sure that you commit to it what you need to. I mentioned earlier that the level of complexity here is pretty high, and that just means it's really going to take some effort to be prepared and be conscious about doing that so that you're not behind.

John Koetsier: That is a non-obvious but very valuable tip. We've seen, and Gadi mentioned it, companies get hammered in the stock market, right? And those are the ones we see, those are the public companies. There's a lot of companies that aren’t public. They're trying to raise another round, they're trying to do whatever...expand, whatever they're trying to do, and their board is looking at them and their potential investors are looking at them and, you know, the growth isn't there, the results aren't there, and they didn't budget, they didn't build a task force, and they didn't stay engaged. Well, guess what? Nobody who's listening to this will fall in that category because you guys have provided amazing insight. Thank you so much, all of you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Thank you for being insightful and also leaving us with our new motto, jump on that SKAN train, right? We have to do it. We have to do it with PSA. Absolutely.

John Koetsier: And thank you to all listeners. We really do appreciate you. Hope you're enjoying it. Let us know on social if you are.

Peggy Anne Salz: And let us know if you want to come and we'll have you on the show. If you're a mobile hero or you know someone who is, then fill out the interest form over at

John Koetsier: Also Liftoff has a Slack for mobile heroes and people in the mobile ecosystem. There's a link on the screen, and if you're listening to podcasts, it's at It's pretty cool. There's smart people there, and, you know what, they probably need you too.

Peggy Anne Salz: And you have probably been completely blown away by all the insights on this show and you want your transcript. And you can have it because the transcripts are over at Liftoff's website. Go to, click on heroes, and then click on podcast.

John Koetsier: I actually personally love transcripts because I read way faster than people talk. So it's a great way to get insights really, really quickly. Until next time, this is John Koetsier. Thank you so much for joining.

Peggy Anne Salz: And this is Peggy Anne Salz signing off for "Mobile Heroes Uncensored."

Jun 8, 2022

How One CMO Built a Popular Social Network for People Who Love Fishing

This may come as a shock but not every massive, successful, money-making app is in gaming, fintech, ride-hailing, or the metaverse. Today we chat with the CMO of a very different type of app: one that builds a digital layer to connect a pre-existing community and offers tools and commerce that make what they do better.

What is it?

Fishbrain connects 14 million fishers across the planet with tools, maps, social features, recommendations, and shopping. We chat with Lisa Kennelly, the CMO, who is building something amazing in a nontraditional (for mobile!) space. 

Lisa talks about acquisition channels, what’s delivering uplift, how Fishbrain keeps its marketing and ads fresh, and how they engage their users. Plus, we also get into Fishbrains expansion into commerce.

26 min

Lisa Kennelly: In the social networks like Facebook and Instagram, they're very broad, but they're very shallow, right? And people want to go quite deep on their hobby, their thing they're passionate about, you know. So I think the concept of vertical social networks, that has been around for a long time, but it's only sort of more recently as people have started to want more than what Facebook or Instagram provides that those who started to really grow.
John Koetsier: Do you have fish on your brain? Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." My name is John Koetsier. My co-host, of course, as always, is the amazing Peggy Anne Salz. Today, we're chatting with somebody else who's also amazing, and somebody very different, who leads an app that is very, very different. It's not in the metaverse, not a game, you don't earn gems, you're not killing aliens. It's not ride-hailing, or FinTech, or any of the other huge investment mobile verticals that we talk about and talk to all the time. What it is, is a truly massive app for a massive group of people that takes an existing behaviour and lifestyle and build a digital layer for that community to connect, do what they do better, get the right tools, and enjoy their activity more. The app is called Fishbrain, and we're chatting with the CMO today. Who is she, Peggy?
Peggy Anne Salz: So, we have Lisa Kennelly. She's CMO at Fishbrain. And as you were talking about it, John, Fishbrain is the world's most popular mobile app marketplace and social network for people who love fishing. They're addicted to it. And she is a marketing and communications professional with experience in scaling teams and startups in the U.S. and Europe. So she has built this eCommerce marketplace. Her expertise and growth and marketing come through but also user acquisition, community, and more. And she loves growth almost as much as I think as the fisherman love the fishing because she is "totally addicted to it." And she's gotten into coaching and mentoring startups as well. She loves talking to people about their challenges and learnings. And she's involved in a number of programs, including First Round Fast Track, Startup, Core Strengths, Growth Mentor. She'll be here to talk with us, which is great. She loved talking with us, and she loves to draw from her own experience to keep marketers on the straight and narrow, get them unstuck. So, we're looking forward to hearing some of those tips as well, Lisa. Welcome.
Lisa Kennelly: Well, thanks so much for having me. That was a great introduction.
John Koetsier: Welcome. Everybody likes talking to us, Peggy because we are nice people. So it's a good time when they talk to us. So, Lisa, I Googled your app, I noted the 14 million fishers who have logged 12 million catches, I noted there was a difference between those two numbers and I was wondering, does this prove once and for all that the fishing trip isn't really about the fish?
Lisa Kennelly: Oh, wow, great point there. I mean, I think it proves that yes...
John Koetsier: I can do basic math like anybody else.
Lisa Kennelly: You can have a really great fishing trip or fishing experience without catching a fish. Of course, catching a fish makes it better. I've been told I'm actually super unsuccessful at catching fish when we do our company fishing trips. It's also true that a lot of people use Fishbrain who maybe won't log all their catches there. We hope they do. But sometimes they use it for more of the social network, you know, community park, or maybe for the shopping cart. But we do like to say every catch on Fishbrain, we have that as a company goal for a while.
John Koetsier: I love it. And I was kind of joking with you there because I know, like, you know, many people will use an app and not use every single feature of it, right? So that makes 100% of sense. But you do have a pretty amazing audience/community, 14 million is super significant. How did you grow to that?
Lisa Kennelly: Yeah. So I mean, the app has been around for quite a while. So, it's been around since around 2010 or so. So we have... I would say one way we've grown is like we've been around for a while, we, you know, went through those first steps in the first few years of figuring out what worked and getting to the point of product-market fit where we could grow. So I would say that's part of it. And then it was... You know, once we found that, that it was a great now we have, you know, the investment, we have the team to start to scale that both on the marketing, you know, acquisition side, as well as through other channels, organic channels, partnership channels. So I wish I could say there's like, "Oh, we figured it out." But it was just a lot of the sort of usual tactics of, like, you find a product that works and then you scale it. So easy, right?
Peggy Anne Salz: So no special sort of channels that help the most. It was, you know, paid, unpaid. It was all in Facebook, whatever. Is there any one that really stood out for you?
Lisa Kennelly: So I would say it's definitely gone in phases over time. I would say much like most mobile apps and marketers, you know, have found over time. So definitely before the last couple of years, we did grow a lot through paid channels through Facebook and through Google and those. And, you know, because the targeting was so good, it made sense. Why wouldn't we go through Facebook, right? We could find people who are interested in fishing. And we did. So that was quite an effective way for us to grow for quite some time. And then, obviously, with the changes to iOS and privacy in the last couple of years, we've started to invest more heavily in other channels. We always were. So, we certainly have done influencers for quite some years. There's a lot of fishing influencers, if you didn't know that. It's very popular on various channels, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. So we've done some work with them. Of course, we've got a lot of growth from the community. So when we pull our users right now, and we ask them where they heard about Fishbrain, 35% say from friends and family. So we know there's quite a lot of word of mouth happening. So those are some different channels that, you know, we've grown through and continue to grow through. And then the last year, we've put a lot of emphasis on growing through partners as well, because there's so many partners in the fishing industry, right? In the fishing industry, you mentioned some of these other industries that a lot of tech is working in. Unlike many of those, fishing is very non-digital, or it's been very non-digital for a very long time. So, as more and more of the industry players in fishing, you know, want to get more involved in digital and tech and reach a younger audience, they've come to us because they see we're the biggest fishing app in the space. So that's been very interesting as a way for us to grow is connecting with fishing brands, the agencies in the States who are the ones who sell the fishing licenses and manage all the waters, for example, some conservation organisations. Those are the type of organizations we're partnering with now.
John Koetsier: It makes a ton of sense, Lisa. And Peggy, it's quite interesting, actually, the major growth strategy is been around surviving. Who would have known? If you're actually running a business and you can survive for a decade or more, chances are you're going to keep growing along the way. I want to dig deeper into a little bit of the app, Lisa. And the reason I'm doing so is because, as I said off the top, you know, it's not a vertical that people think of immediately when they think of mobile, and they think of apps, and they think... But it's actually probably underserved, just in terms of whether it's fishing, whether it's construction, whether it's something that is non-digital, non-mobile, that somebody's taking an app and actually building a community and providing something useful. There's a lot of revenue potential there and a lot of growth opportunity there that isn't normal. But you've added a social component there. And I want you to help us understand what is that? What does it look like? If I go fishing with Peggy and we're in a boat somewhere, and we both have the app, do we like say, "Hey, we're fishing together?" And are there special features when we're on a fishing trip together?
Lisa Kennelly: That's a very great question and so timely. Exactly. So...
John Koetsier: Plenty of fish in the sea. That's related, right?
Lisa Kennelly: For sure. For sure. So I would say that's evolved over time. So, actually, right now, something we're working on building is a feature we do call trips, which is talking about what is your fishing trip which could involve other people, right? It can be we're on this fishing trip together. And that is something that we've developed over time. I would say the other... I mean, some of the other community features that have been there for a long time, is that one of the things you do when you set up the app is you say, what's my fishing area? Like, what's the...? It's geographically based. What are the places I like to fish? Because most people, when they fish regularly, it's within a 30-minute drive of their house. Of course, you can go fishing trips, you have more, you don't want off things. But if you're someone who fishes as a hobby, most of the time it's a 30-minute drive your house, right? So you want to know what's around you. And then you want to see... You can see the catches that are around you, and you can see who caught those fish around you. So that's something we've heard for a long time, is that people will connect with people they've met in their area who they see fishing by the body of water near them. We actually have a really cute story of a couple who actually met via Fishbrain because they were both fishing sort of in the same water, and they got connected, and they ended up getting married as a result of meeting at Fishbrain. So it's pretty amazing way of bringing people together. So...
John Koetsier: I was joking with plenty of fish comment, but...
Lisa Kennelly: Yeah. But I mean, to go back to your point about, you know, is this sort of a unique vertical? I mean, that was one of the reasons that our CEO and founder thought about Fishbrain back then was that in these social networks like Facebook and Instagram, they're very broad, but they're very shallow, right? And people want to go quite deep on their hobby, their thing they're passionate about. So, I think the concept of vertical social networks, that has been around for a long time, but it's only sort of more recently as people have started to want more than what Facebook or Instagram provides that those have started to really grow. And there's other very successful ones like Strava, you know, is another example we look at a lot, I would say Vivino, the wine app, they're another one. Now, there's quite an interesting social component on the marketplace. Untappd is a beer social network. So there are some out there. I know those are two alcoholic samples. They're...
John Koetsier: Not just fish on your brain.
Peggy Anne Salz: It makes perfect sense, John. You know, people love what they love. And it makes me think of a story way back at the start of mobile and apps. And one of the biggest networks at that point in time was in Scandinavia, where else, right? A lot of darkness, a lot of time on your hands. And it was bird calls, right? You have these people who were like, "Who can do the best bird calls and who can do the best imitations?" And really get into this stuff. So people love what they love. They're passionate about what they care about. But I do want to stay with the audience for a moment because they're committed for sure, right? But the passion about fishing, you know, it can wane or there can be other apps out there that aren't like yours but do cater to fishing enthusiasts. How do you get your audience to keep using it on a regular basis, you know, between the trips, between the dating for other fishing enthusiasts, you know, stay relevant, stay top of mind, how do you handle that?
Lisa Kennelly: Oh, that's such a great question. I mean, retention is something we all struggle with in the industry and especially fishing, which is very seasonal, right? So on top of just general app retention, we have quite a seasonality curve, especially because most of our audience is in the United States. We are global, but we focus a lot of our marketing growth on the U.S. currently. And so, you see a very, very strong seasonality curve that goes up from April to October, more or less, that's the peak. And people fish all year round. There are some people who do. But, you know, if you live in the northern part of the United States, unless you're going ice fishing, not so much. And then there's actual, you know, regulations around when you can and can't fish depending on when the fish are spawning all of that. So that's something we do work with a lot is, you know, how do we keep people engaged. If I went fishing all summer, and then it's too cold, then I won't go fishing again until the next year. So there's a couple of different ways. Certainly, it's around, you know, the standard tools in your tool belt of like emails and push notifications and all of those things. But actually, the marketplace we developed was a direct approach to that because the season for shopping for fishing gear is kind of the inverse. So, the biggest month for shopping for fishing gear for our audience are like November, December, which is like Black Friday shopping season. So if you see our activity, those curves are a little bit inverted. So that's something we did to try and balance that out. But I would say other things we're doing is definitely around the content side. Because even if you're not fishing, you're consuming fishing content all year round. It's the dark of December and you're watching fishing videos on YouTube all day all night. So, you know, we're trying to work with ways to improve the content in the app. And maybe that comes back to trips as a way to relive your trip or plan your next trip. So it's definitely, you know, trying to make sure we're adding value to that angler experience, even if you're not going out fishing.
John Koetsier: There's so much opportunity there. That is really interesting. I mean, like recording short video clips of your experience that can be geo-located, and you can see them as you enter a new lake or so maybe you're doing that already, I have no idea. But that'd be really neat, you know, publishing to YouTube, if somebody's like, "Oh, I got this great fish or something like that." I'm sure you do something like that as well. But I'm super interested in this e-commerce ecosystem you built you offer, wow, 100,000 products over 500 brands? That's really interesting. I mean, because you've got what Bass Pro Shops and other big retailers in the states. Talk about your growth of the e-commerce ecosystem. And is that where you're driving most of your revenue? Is that where you anticipate most of your revenue coming?
Lisa Kennelly: So it's's not currently where we drive. Most of our revenue is inverse. So the subscription business is still the bulk of our revenue, but it is the future, right? That's where the big opportunity is. So it's still a smaller piece of our revenue, but it is growing. It's been quite a ride with that. I mean, you know, you think it's enough to be doing sort of a utility, that's a fishing app to tell you where to go fishing and a social network on top, let's throw a marketplace on top to and really adds me so impactful things.
John Koetsier: Pretty soon you will have WeChat.
Lisa Kennelly: I know, I know. But, you know, again, going back to the fishing industry and this really worked out well with the timing of a lot of fishing brands wanting to go direct to consumer. And here we were this opportunity for them to do that quite easily. So that worked out really well with sort of the way the industry was going. And then we actually launched the marketplace not long before the pandemic. So then also everything went online. And at the same time, you know, Amazon for a while was...and Walmart, they were only selling essentials. So, where could you buy fishing gear? If you Googled for it, we came up pretty high. So that actually gave us, you know, a little bit of a bump and a kickstart on being a place where people could buy fishing gear because certainly, there is a lot of competition from Bass Pro and Amazon, and all those places. But it's not perhaps as crowded in e-commerce space as some verticals. So we have this opportunity to, again, partner with brands who are looking to go digital, looking to go direct to consumer. And then also we have this benefit of like because of the community in the data, we can actually tell you things about that fishing gear that nobody else can tell you. Because if you buy something on Amazon, it's going to tell you, "Yeah. You know, maybe I use this or here's how the shipping experience was." We can say, "Hey, this rod you want to buy it's been rated by 30 anglers who caught these specific fish within these specific bodies of water." We can tell you how this actually performs, which is a much better way to make a purchase, then you really see, "Yeah. This is how this thing works," then another. So, that is what we feel it was really our USP when it comes to our commerce shop.
John Koetsier: Amazing.
Peggy Anne Salz: That is interesting and formed reviews because I'm seeing that and hearing that so much more that you are going to want to go to reviews, reviewers and products that people really, really get, right? It's not the generic, "Oh, this was great. I love it." Or "No. This wasn't and I don't love it." You know, it's like informed reviews. And that's going to be, as you said, yourself a big part of your USP. And I've been talking to a number of marketers like in health and fitness, right? And they're saying themselves, "You know, we can do some deals with some equipment makers, and we can really move up and move up the food chain and make tons of money." So, everybody is interested in how do you work with someone else? How do you build an ecosystem, and you've done it already. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you sourced your vendors and made these partnerships that have benefited you and your app.
Lisa Kennelly: I would say first, there's the vendor side of it and there was also sort of the tech and development side of it, which was something where we had to, you know, figure out what we're going to build ourselves, what we're going to outsource. And we did end up, you know, outsourcing the marketplace functionality to start and then over time, we sort of started to bring that in house piece by piece, just how you build a marketing team too, right? You start outsourcing it, and then you bring it in-house piece by piece. So there was that piece. And then also yeah, working with the brands, I mean, this was something that we weren't super stealth about it when we were building it up over the years, it was always on our roadmap. It was something that our CEO, when he spoke with the industry would say, "This is the direction we're going. So we had a sense to sound out and get a sense, like, there were partners who were interested. So then when it came time, it was like, "Okay. Who can we bring on board? Who can be some of our key initial partners?" You know, one key thing for us was getting on one very big industry player who owned a lot of brands under them, and get them on sort of a special deal, which then took years to lock it in. And they have maybe a special deal that's different from the rest of the industry. But that did help show the industry, okay, if that big partner is partnering with us, you know, that gives us a lot of street cred, right? That makes them trust us more. So I would say the learning is like, who are the sort of key early partners you can get on and be focused and understand your sales cycle for that will take time. But if you can get those key ones on, that will leverage and then then it just snowballs over time. And there's a big fishing industry conference in Orlando every year. That's called ICAST. And it's the sort of B2B side of the industry. And a few years ago when we'd go and we're trying to get people to marketplace, they were like, "Who are these guys? What is this?" And the last year we went everyone was like, "Oh, it's Fishbrain, we know you. Yeah, come on over." It was amazing to see how much that changed. So, it took a lot of work, but it really was worth it.
John Koetsier: Wonderful.
Peggy Anne Salz: Kat was just saying it, but maybe it's all about catching a big fish.
Lisa Kennelly: Let me tell you that I'm also in charge of a brand for the company, right? But I'm in charge of the branding and fishponds are on-brand. So it's okay. They're a part of our official brand document.
John Koetsier: Okay. I guess that means Peggy's off the hook. Sorry, sorry. I'll shut u now after I ask one more question here. We live in a global world. Fishing, obviously is massive in the U.S. and you have some roots there, but there's a growth strategy that you're driving, companies based in Sweden, right? There's a fan base all over the place, lots of Europeans, guess what? Asians, others all over the world. Probably, you know, everywhere people like to fish. How do you approach that? How are you approaching cross-cultural activity in marketing and what's your growth strategy across the globe?
Lisa Kennelly: So, currently, I would say our growth strategy is primarily focused on the U.S. It's been focused on the U.S. from the early days just because that is like a very, very big market for anglers a ton of money, a lot of the brands there. Also, in Sweden where we're located. And we've definitely done testing in different markets, like in the UK, and Japan, also Australia, New Zealand. We've done quite a lot there. That's when we still do, which, again, is a way to counter the seasonality because their season is peaking when the U.S. season maybe is lower. And so we've done that a little bit, globally. But definitely in the last couple of years, we've really concentrated more on the U.S. because fishing in the U.S. might as well be 50 different countries minimum. It's so different. You know, if you're looking at someone who's fishing for a largemouth bass in Florida versus someone fishing for trout in Idaho, it's going to be totally different. So it's enough work to just be effective with our marketing and our customer research and our product development in the U.S. alone. Now, given that we are based in Stockholm, that has been an interesting challenge. I mean, over the course of the pandemic, we ended up hiring a lot more remote than we had previously, which turned out to be quite a benefit for us, and especially in the business development team have ended up hiring more people based in the U.S. who are anglers themselves to give us more insight into the audience we're marketing too. So I think it is that balance because I think it is really helpful to have the objectivity of not being your customer, but then you better have some people who really, really understand your customer, and you need to understand your customer. So it's been a lot of a balance and building that team of sort of the skill set, and then also the mentality of who we're going after.
Peggy Anne Salz: So let's talk about teams and working together and driving the growth of your app and fandom in regions that are not the U.S. You're from the U.S., the app is not. What are the challenges that you faced? What are some of the interesting, surprising solutions you found?
Lisa Kennelly: Yeah. Great question. I mean, definitely, both Fishbrain where I am now and then at Clue, which is the app where I was at before in Berlin, I was brought on to lead the marketing team being an American for these aspects in Europe because the audience was targeting the U.S. So that's definitely sort of part of the package of why I'm here, even if I'm not maybe an angler myself. So it's something that I tried to bring that perspective. I do think that you don't have to be located in the country where you're marketing. As long as you know marketing is to an extent the same everywhere. So as long as you have that right balance, again, of sort of understanding who your customer is, and having the humility to know that you might not know anything about how your customer behaves yourself, but that is why you do the research to understand it, right? And so that's something I would say I do within my teams, within the larger teams I'm in is being able to say like, "Look, we don't know. We have to understand our customer and listen to what they tell us." And that's going to shape our marketing, no matter where we are, and our product development as well.
John Koetsier: I love that answer. And the fact is actually that, as you stated yourself earlier, sometimes when you're exterior to your target audience, you see things, and you notice things, and you learn things, especially in research that people just take for granted when they're in the target demographic and don't take advantage of. So I absolutely love that. As one who sometimes wonders, is it bass or bass? Come on, tell me. Now I know. But I want to end this way, Lisa. Give us your top three tips for mobile marketers in unconventional verticals. Verticals that aren't the ones that we think of when we think top five verticals, you know, games is always in there and other things. What are your top three tips for mobile marketers in unconventional verticals?
Lisa Kennelly: So, my top three tips for people in unconventional verticals, this is my tip for everyone all the time, which I already said, but it's just understand your customer and do your research, right? It doesn't matter where you are, you have to understand your customer, do the research, talk to them, understand and constantly talk to them. I think that's super important. And then I would say the second tip is find your sort of siblings. So I talked about a couple of the apps like Vivino and Untappd and Strava, and another one is AllTrails. There are some apps that are like in vertical social who are not competitors to us, right? They're either like in a sort of parallel vertical, or they're doing the same thing. They're totally different vertical and talk to them. I get so much value out of talking to the CMOS, the CEOs, the growth teams of those companies. It really is kind of like a sisterhood between us in our sort of unique verticals versus Lowe's broader social networks. So find your people who you can learn from and talk to, I think that's really important. And then I would say that my final piece of advice is, like, when you get the sort of pushback of people saying, "Wow, that seems really niche." That is the point, right? Don't be dissuaded by people saying, "Oh, that's so niche. It's so small." If the data is there, you know, you've seen that there's a market there, you've seen there's an interest there, and you've seen that you're solving a problem that doesn't have a solution, then trust in that. Trust that you're building something because there is a need for that very passionate community.
John Koetsier: That's great advice. I absolutely loved it. And this was a real pleasure of a chat. Thank you so much for taking the time, Lisa. It was a really fun time for me.
Lisa Kennelly: Thanks a lot. Thank you.
Peggy Anne Salz: Thanks so much, Lisa. I'm also wondering if you fish.
John Koetsier: She does know.
Lisa Kennelly: As part of work in Fishbrain, when you go on a company off-site, you go fishing. We just did that a couple of weeks ago. And I did not catch a fish once again.
John Koetsier: We'll have to interview you in a year or something like that. And then we will see if you've caught a fish and if you've caught the fish, then we ask how large was the fish and we'll ask for documentation as well because we know everybody exaggerates what they caught. But anyway, it's been a real pleasure.
Peggy Anne Salz: That's the one that got away, right?
John Koetsier: Yes. The one that got away is always even bigger.
Lisa Kennelly: I'll tell you, you can go see it on Fishbrain because it'll be logged on Fishbrain. So you can see it there.
Peggy Anne Salz: There you go.
John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Love it. Awesome. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful evening.
Lisa Kennelly: You too.
John Koetsier: And thank you to all listeners. We really do appreciate you. Hope you're enjoying it. Let us know on social if you are.
Peggy Anne Salz: And let us know if you want to come and we'll have you on the show. If you're a mobile hero or you know someone who is, then fill out the interest form over at
John Koetsier: Also, Liftoff has a slack for mobile heroes and people in the mobile ecosystem. There's a link on the screen. And if you're listening to the podcast, it's that It's pretty cool. There's smart people there, and you know what? They probably need you too.
Peggy Anne Salz: And you have probably been completely blown away by all the insights on this show and you want your transcript, and you can have it because the transcripts are over at Liftoff's website. Go to click on heroes, and then click on podcast.
John Koetsier: I actually personally love transcripts because they read way faster than people talk. So, it's a great way to get insights really, really quickly. Until next time, this is John Koetsier. Thank you so much for joining.
Peggy Anne Salz: And this is Peggy Anne Salz signing off for "Mobile Heroes Uncensored."

May 25, 2022

Road Trip Turkey: The New Silicon Valley of Gaming?

Why has Zynga bought no fewer than 5 Turkish game companies? Why are so many significant success stories coming out of the Turkish game community?

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier talk to 2 leading experts in Turkey’s emerging mobile gaming ecosystem. Batuhan Avucan, Founder & Managing Director at Mobidictum and Utku Altunkiran, User Acquisition Manager at Animation International Turkey, talk about what’s happening, why Turkey’s gaming space is growing, and what publishers need to know about the Turkish scene.

We also chat about moving from hyper-casual games to a subscription model, influencer marketing, monetization, AR/VR, and creative strategies that deliver big upside.

28 mins

Batuhan Avucan: We come up with fresh ideas, new game designs all the time. We are hard workers. I think by, like, being in Turkey, between Europe and Asia, brings some extra cultural points. Also, life in Turkey always pushes us.

John Koetsier: Is Turkey the new Silicon Valley of mobile gaming? Hello and welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." Today is road trip day. Kind of exciting, except it's a virtual road trip, but hey, it's still a road trip day for Mobile Heroes, and we're going to the land of the Bosporus, Istanbul, romance, adventure, history. Unfortunately, yes, virtually. We really, really need to actually go, Peggy. One of these days we will, because there are super interesting things happening in the Turkey tech scene. Zynga bought five Turkey-based developer studios over the last four years, and Turkey's government actually compensates developers for App Store fees and Google Play fees, which helps, of course, boost local investment and profitability. So there must be a lot that's going on that's interesting. Peggy, who are we chatting with today?

Peggy Anne Salz: It is where the action is John. That's why we have our special. And we have two guests. We have Batuhan Avucan. He is founder and managing director at Mobidictum. Mobidictum has grown to become the biggest game industry news and events platform in Turkey. And Batuhan is the textbook growth marketer. He's into growth. He grows games companies by helping them with strategic decisions and partnerships. His colleagues call him a growth marketer, a doer. He likes to fix problems. He loves a challenge, and he's in the right place if he’s with us today, John.

Batuhan Avucan: Thank you. Thank you for hosting me. Thank you, John. Happy to be here. Excited to talk about the scene in Turkey. We'll be waiting for your questions.

Peggy Anne Salz: Our second guest is Utku Altunkiran, user acquisition manager at Kidly. He is a growth marketer, a UA marketer. But his company is really interesting because it's not games, although he does have a games background. The company produces fun, educational, and exclusive content for kids. And not just the typical fairy...not just like the fairy tales. It ranges from yoga and mindfulness to respect for diversity and animal rights. Now, Utku started his career as a UA specialist in Wixot Games in June 2019. And since then, he has had a focus on casual games. Now his focus is on brand and building awareness in the app economy, and in all the countries where his app is available. Welcome to you both.

Utku Altunkiran: Thanks for the intro, Peggy. Great to be here.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Thanks for both for joining us. This is very cool. It's always great to explore a new country, explore a new industry. We saw an article...I mean, “Digiday” said Turkey's becoming a Silicon Valley of mobile gaming. Why is that? Batuhan, Maybe you first.

Batuhan Avucan: John, as you mentioned, like, mobile gaming industry has possibly been gross underestimated for the last few years. As you mentioned, Zynga acquired companies. There's been like a lot of investment coming up, you know. Government is helping with the acquisition, and we have a lot of techno parks, which helps with the tax reductions. It's easier for companies to, you know, get new employees. There's a lot of side events, talks, webinars, summits to grow the game industry. So this is how it's growing right now.

John Koetsier: Utku, what are you seeing there?

Utku Altunkiran: As John mentioned, the Turkish government has been compensating and promoting technology companies which match the criterias. And that's a huge game-changer policy for all mobile app developers and publishers which has an operation in Turkey. Recent years big games success stories have become popular in there. This attention drive more attention to the mobile gaming sector in Turkey in every aspect for sure. Gram Games, Masomo, and recently Dream Games and Trollex success stories are empowering the scene. More investors and mobile experts realize the great potential of Turkey formal mobile games development. As a result, we are seeing new gaming companies start their journey in Turkey, and existing ones gradually expanding their teams.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, Batuhan, you're not only bullish about Turkey, but you are really inspired by what's happening in the games industry. You've said it has "blossomed to be a gross understatement. In a scant few years, Turkey has comprehensively..." You're so modest. "...comprehensively defined itself as a global leader in the hyper-casual game genre." What do you mean by that?

Batuhan Avucan: We are quick thinkers. And hyper-casual is something that needs quick thinking. So we come up with fresh ideas, new game designs all the time. We are hard workers. I think by, like, being in Turkey between Europe and Asia brings some extra cultural points. Also life in Turkey always pushes us to, you know, come up with the quick fixes, you know. We have talented people. Turkish people love to play games ever since... All the older kids are playing games, you know.

Quick problem solving, quick thinking, interest for game design, hardworking, when you combine all these ingredients, I think we have the right recipe for the hyper-casual especially. And this is how we are successful. At some point on top charts in top 10 free download, there was six Turkish game companies. This is huge, you know, and I think it will keep growing in this way.

John Koetsier: Nice. So you're building games for the local audience, also the international audience. Maybe if we look at the local audience first. Utku, maybe bring you in here. How do you describe the local audience demographics and dynamics?

Utku Altunkiran: The local population differs among themselves in many ways. I must state that the young population has a significant share in the total population, the young population of more than 20% of Turkey's population holds great potential, especially for mobile games publishers. We can say that the young population closely follows the trends and developments in the global world and is easily influenced by them. The vast majority of Turkey's population of more than 84 million spend a significant amount of time their phones in their daily routines. And we can give different examples of timespan such as playing mobile games, shopping on ecommerce apps, or spending time in meditation and sports apps. It is critical for mobile apps marketers to segment users in line with their own activities.

John Koetsier: Nice. And of course, you're marketing to parents, right? Because you've got kids-focused apps. What's working in Turkey to get their attention and build their trust?

Utku Altunkiran: It's an important point to boost successful long-term use strategy for Kidly and other mobile apps which are mainly targeting the parents. We are aware of this, and we are mainly trying to highlight our apps' benefits and advantages for the parents and their kids. You have to show these parents that your app is going to solve some of their problems, minor or major issues, which they are facing. Also, we are trying to explain to the parents that the app is completely safe for their kids. Teams are always keeping improving apps content features and other related stuff with the product, and we are trying to highlight brand new features in the UA. We are trying to convey this approach which the company has to the users in the most suitable and unique ways. Creating marketing assets and digital marketing posts with this direction is helping to acquire the right users and also empowering the brand evolution in general. I believe almost every successful and outstanding apps have unique features, and, in my opinion, this is one of the most powerful vehicles for the marketers. And they need to use these features in their everyday activities where it works. Of course, we are also trying to adapt to that.

Peggy Anne Salz: So you have to spell out the benefit of your app for a content app. I want to just go back to gaming for a moment and you, Batuhan. What does it take to engage...? The population is quite young. But still, what do you need to know to engage and acquire players in Turkey for your games?

Batuhan Avucan: Big companies have budgets, right? And there are a lot of different channels to acquire users, get attention of the young players. First of all, influencer marketing for example. We might be in top charts on Twitch as well. Our Twitch influencers are also doing a pretty good job. A lot of, you know, like, young populations are following Twitch, YouTubers as well. So they are influenced by influencers. That's why we call them the influencers.

John Koetsier: Hey, that fits. How does that work?

Batuhan Avucan: This is one of the main channels. TV. Like, sometimes for the big companies, I see TV advertising, so this is still something going on. Obviously, PR. Okay, the readership is not that high anymore, but to the gaming outlets, like Mobidictum, time to time we have like the pre-press releases of new games and so on. Events. There are two gaming events, like gamer-focused events, and not all the companies are joining to this one, but larger companies like Tencent for example is showing activities on these type of events. Of course digital marketing, right, like Facebook, Instagram, especially with TikTok is picking up right now. Facebook usage among young population has decreased of course, but TikTok is picking up. But I think the main return is coming from the influencer marketing with their... There are some projects, like a couple of influencers are gathering. They have like a new video, not just playing the game but like a music clip, you know. Like, really interesting projects that are coming up. They do giveaways. Giveaways are still...they are really popular, you know. I would say influencer marketing.

John Koetsier: I just want to interject there for a second. What channels is that influencer marketing mostly happening on? Is that mostly happening on TikTok, on YouTube, Snap? Where's it happening?

Batuhan Avucan: Twitch and YouTube. Snap is...I don't think it's that popular. I haven't seen any Snap campaign, to be honest. But Twitch and YouTube is the most popular right now.

Peggy Anne Salz: So you're talking about the opportunities, the channels in the market. What's your top tip, Batuhan, for advice, for marketers who are coming in and want to crack the Turkish market?

Batuhan Avucan: I mean, working with a local partner is always important, right? Like someone understands the culture, because the culture is really important. Like, how will you address to this audience? Turkey is not entirely Europe and Turkey is not entirely Middle East. It's somewhere in between, you know. So a local partner will understand what's good for the brand and create a strategy accordingly, you know. I would go and talk with all the partners, not just stick with the one and, you know, talk and understand, like, if the needs are covered and the brand will have a good fit, you know, through agencies or, you know, like with local partners who just does PR or influencer marketing. And definitely trying to understand the market by yourself is also important to see, like, if what the agency is telling you and what you're understanding is similar, you know. But after all, understanding the culture and the ways of doing marketing would be my number one tip.

John Koetsier: That's one of the reasons I want to visit Turkey. It sounds so interesting. I mean, a mix of cultures right at the Bosphorus, always that trade and that influence of ideas and the long history of empires that have come through there have created a totally unique country. Utku, maybe to turn to you. You've had an interesting switch, right? You're a marketer, but you moved from hyper-casual games to a subscription model. What was behind that and what allowed you to do that?

Utku Altunkiran: Of course, making this move involved risks, but the idea of running campaigns for a different revenue model got me super excited. I gained valuable information via conducting marketing activities for casual and hyper-casual games at Wixot games. I was sure the experience I gained we thought would be of great benefit to Kidly’s purposes. The fact that the Kidly team enlisted me at this point accelerated our decision to work together. In addition, knowing that I would work more significantly at Kidly with branding dynamics, which are generally less important in mobile game marketing activities, had a great and positive impact on my decision-making process.

John Koetsier: So Utku, when you transition from hyper-casual to subscription, that's a big change, because hyper-casual, what do you have them for? A week, two weeks, three weeks, maybe a little longer if you're super lucky. Subscription, you want those people for months, if not years. How did you change your tactics to make that work?

Utku Altunkiran: The revenue model of hyper-casual games is based on getting results in a short time and maximizing profits. In order to achieve this, it is of great importance to catch the CPI values determined by taking into account the country-based CPI benchmarks in UA activities. In casual games, on the other hand, it's possible to see a more flexible structure in CPI values by emphasizing the importance of LTV-CPI relationship. In the activities I carry out, I focus on increasing profitability by combining the importance I attach to producing unique creatives for hyper casual games and the techniques of segmenting users that are used more in the UA activities while I was driving users for in-app purchase and subscription revenue-based casual games.

Peggy Anne Salz: I'll move to you, Batuhan. You're talking about growing Turkey's game industry, which is huge, so it doesn't look like it needs a ton of help. I'd like to understand though the types of content and campaigns that are working from your perspective, because you are not just building content, you're building communities. It's B2B. It's B2C.

Batuhan Avucan: Yeah, well, it actually needs some help. I will just add.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay, a little.

Batuhan Avucan: Because...

John Koetsier: Everybody needs help.

Batuhan Avucan: Everybody needs help, right? So, like, Peak Games, right? The ones who left Peak Games have successful studios now. Ex-Peak, you know, finding an investment is easier, and you'll see all the other games, like Dream Games, Spyke Games, you know, and all the other successes. But there are also a lot of companies and entrepreneurs who never been into gaming, and they want to build the game company, they want to be in gaming, you know, and I think that's the part where Mobidictum comes in and helps with the content and the networking, you know.

So through our website, you can pretty much find all the information from the beginning, like what kind of genre you should choose, what can you do, how to grow with service providers, publishers, you know. Like pretty much if you don't know anything about gaming, Mobidictum will be there for you. We support that with events, right? I am a strong believer of networking. This is how I grew my company and myself through the countless of events, standing by the wood for hours, not sleeping, partying and waking up on the next day and say, "Oh, how was the party?" But, you know, no one cares about the event. But this was my life, and this is what I would try to bring to Turkish community because these things were not happening before. Like, it was happening at some scale, but not in a large way. So in that sense, yes, we are building community on B2B space to help game developers and anyone in the gaming industry.

Peggy Anne Salz: You're doing a lot B2C, B2B, what's the coolest thing you are doing? Because a lot of companies in your space are looking at ways to experiment with the content. You know, I think of Samsung's update. Pretty cool, right? A virtual influencer that presents the gaming news. What are you doing?

Batuhan Avucan: I mean, we had this idea in November. Why? When we had a team retreat in the lobby, I was like, "Oh, we should have a virtual reporter and start covering news, you know." And that's Samsung, so they can implement that idea in the next day. So for us, it took a little bit of time. Our focus shifted to B2B to be honest. But on the B2C, we had this idea. Of course, it's always better to bring some value. But I will just tell you one campaign that we did. This was years ago when we were much smaller, not even, you know, like, an entity back then.

So we labeled some pencils I guess Mobidictum brand, right? And we put these out in the libraries because every project starts with the idea, right? This was like a small campaign. I mean, we didn't target for gamers specifically, but it could be used by gamers. For gamer audience, not sure if it did something cool, but we did a lot of tournaments around different games. We did a lot of giveaways. So, we try to cover content for their interests, like how to do this in this game, you know. So basically, whatever content we create is always for the audience's need, you know. We had this Samsung's idea. We'll do it eventually, and we might do B2C events as well.

John Koetsier: Okay, cool. Sticking with you, Batuhan. You've talked about influencer marketing already. Besides that, what is the one thing that has delivered maybe the biggest performance uplift in Turkey, maybe creative strategy, other things?

Batuhan Avucan: We should ask this to game companies who sponsor those major events. But again, like smaller size of events will be a bigger size of events. I think that has a bigger return. Digital marketing, for example, you don't...especially for the games which has a high in-app purchase, right? Those are the ones who are targeting Turkey, because with ads, you don't get much revenue, right? That's why like companies like Tencent, League of Legends, right? Riot has had office here for years because...I mean, free to play with cosmetics in-app purchase, these are valuable. And when I look back all those years, these companies had a lot of events, besides anything else, tournaments, like big prize pulls, just events are at different scale. And I think this is how they keep engaging with their audience. And, you know, we like to win stuff, especially money.

John Koetsier: Nice.

Peggy Anne Salz: So swag is universal, John.

Batuhan Avucan: Yeah.

John Koetsier: Yes, it is.

Peggy Anne Salz: So I want to shift from creative strategy to localization strategy with you, Utku, because that's really important to build trust. You really have to connect with the parents of the children. What do marketers need to know about localization? It's often much more than the language. What is it for you?

Utku Altunkiran: We can count the successful localization amongst the most important factors in the success of games or apps. Of course, this is not limited to just translating the text. You have to take into account the users on a national basis, also the cultural basis. It's a known fact that the's a known fact that the creatives with very successful performance in the U.S. and Europe regions markets can be far below the expected performance in other regions. In order to overcome this and achieve desired results in these countries, you need to localize both your marketing strategy and your product in the most accurate way for the countries you are marketing, of course, while doing localization studies for countries or regions where you have superficial information about their cultural elements and sensitivities. Working with experts who have knowledge about this will help you to make the right localization. It will also help you to develop your product effectively in this direction and save time.

John Koetsier: Let's do our final segment. And we want to talk about top three tips for mobile marketers in Turkey. And we do this every single time. We always look for marketers to give their top three tips for marketing in their vertical or in their geo. Batuhan, maybe we'll start with you for one. Give us one tip for a mobile marketer in Turkey.

Batuhan Avucan: Understanding the culture, I think that will be the number one.

John Koetsier: Love it, love it. It makes a ton of sense. Utku, let's turn to you. What's another tip for mobile marketers in Turkey?

Utku Altunkiran: I will say that be unique, be yourself, take care of what users demand from you. Also, a strong branding image could help you to achieve your goals, so don't neglect brand elements and branding factors for your app. Highlight the most interesting features, game mechanics of games app into your creatives. And lastly, I could say try to stay away from personal bias.

John Koetsier: Excellent. And Utku, last word is to you. One more tip for mobile marketers who are coming into Turkey, or Batuhan, if you have one.

Batuhan Avucan: For digital marketing, you still need localization. I think understanding culture and localization, because localization is not translation, right? If you translate the content, like from English by using Google Translate, you might end up with some serious damage. And we are pretty sensitive with some of our cultural points, you know.

John Koetsier: Thank you so much, both of you. It's been fascinating. It's been super interesting to dive into a different culture, a different country, and yet a very similar industry with similar challenges. Thank you so much for your insights.

Batuhan Avucan: Thank you, John. Thank you, Peggy.

Utku Altunkiran: Thanks for having me. I really enjoy.

Peggy Anne Salz: Thank you, Batuhan. Thank you, Utku. And maybe now that events are happening and we're hearing that it's rocking in Turkey, maybe seeing you in person someday.

Batuhan Avucan: Yes, 5th and 6th of September in Istanbul with Michael Zyda.

John Koetsier: There's the invite. Awesome. Can't wait.

Peggy Anne Salz: Awesome.

John Koetsier: And thank you to all listeners. We really do appreciate you, hope you're enjoying it. Let us know on social if you are.

Peggy Anne Salz: And let us know if you want to come, and we'll have you on the show. If you're a mobile hero or you know of someone who is, then fill out the interest form over at

John Koetsier: Also, Liftoff have a Slack for Mobile Heroes and people in the mobile ecosystem. There's a link on the screen. And if you're listening to the podcast, it's at It's pretty cool. There's smart people there, and, you know what, they probably need you too.

Peggy Anne Salz: And you have probably been completely blown away by all the insights on this show and you want your transcript, and you can have it because the transcripts are over at Liftoff's website. Go to, click on Heroes, and then click on Podcast.

John Koetsier: I actually personally love transcripts because they read way faster than people talk. So it's a great way to get insights really, really quickly. Until next time, this is John Koetsier. Thank you so much for joining.

Peggy Anne Salz: And this is Peggy Anne Salz signing off for "Mobile Heroes Uncensored."

May 18, 2022

Applying Behavioral Psychology to 1.4B Game Installs

Are people predictably irrational? Pretty much, and some game marketers have learned exactly how and used that knowledge to grow. One, with over 1.4 billion game installs, is our guest Mert Ersöz, Head of Marketing at MagicLab Game Technologies.

Mert started his career in — you guessed it — behavior economics, and has been growing hit games like Fidget Trading, Text and Drive, Run Race 3D, and more over the past few years. 

We ask him:

  • How have you had a string of top-ranked games?
  • What tactics made the biggest difference to your performance?
  • What growth hacks can you share?
  • How are you boosting retention?

We also learn more about how MagicLab is transitioning from hyper-casual to casual games, and how their marketing is changing too.

25 min

John Koetsier: Are people predictably irrational and can use behavioural psychology to grow mobile games. Welcome to "Mobile Heroes" origin stories, where we go one on one in-depth with mobile marketing experts. And today we have somebody who's pretty special. And I think he's been mainlining coffee all day. So it's going to be great. We're chatting with the head of marketing at a publisher with more than 1.4 billion downloads and an approach to user acquisition that leans heavily on behavioural economics. Peggy, who is it?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we have today Mert Ersöz. He is Head of Marketing at MagicLab Game Technologies. MagicLab designs, develops, publishes hyper-casual and casual games. Best known for some hits. John, as you said, 1.4 billion downloads, best known for Fidget Trading 3D, which I knew, Text And Drive, Destiny Run published with Voodoo, Run Race 3D, Fun Race 3D. He loves the best of list cherries. Yes. And Mert is not just loving his games, he's an all-around talent. As you said, he started in behavioural economics. Then he moved into gaming where he puts his deep knowledge of human behaviour to work in marketing games. And as he puts it, and as you said it, understanding predictably irrational behaviour sometimes provides benefits when you are publishing games. And we're going to find out all about that with you, Mert. Welcome.

Mert Ersöz: Hey, guys.

John Koetsier: I'm super pumped about this. I have interviewed Dan Ariely who wrote "Predictably Irrational." So the book actually on that, so that is very cool. He's a super interesting dude. Half of his face was bearded, half of his face wasn't. It was a bit of a challenge thing and I think he's also had some injuries in the past, but let's talk about mobile marketing and maybe your start about being irrational or predictive or whatever. What was your Eureka moment that triggered the move from studying behavioural economics to applying that to marketing games?

Mert Ersöz: I was doing a master's course on behavioural economics, and then the academy started to be a little bit limiting to me because it's not scalable and also limiting in terms of the potential and the impact you could make if you're not Dan, of course. And I like the games, since I was a child, I like the games. No, but who doesn't like games? And my friends, my childhood friends was already working in the field, so they were developing games. And at that time, I noticed that there was a job for me in the market. So that was my Eureka moment. So it's when they said there is multiple optimizations and UA activities and stuff. And I just said, "Whoa, let's do it."

Peggy Anne Salz: So you've had a string of top-ranking games and you've had views into what works, what doesn't work. What strategies do you think worked best to drive those installs at the start?

Mert Ersöz: What I think is like keep...what's most practical is the most theoretical, I think. So, you don't have the opportunity to make 101 mistakes, so you have to keep the fundamentals. And also following the trends and also leaders becomes handy on that one. So it's like, you don't have to figure out everything yourself. You have to understand what the top guys are doing. So that was actually what we did on those. And also we worked with great partners such as like Voodoo, Good Job, and they brought us some portion of that downloads. That helped too.

Peggy Anne Salz: So having a good blueprint, watching the market leaders, learning, learning from the best. What made the biggest performance difference in your UA strategy?

Mert Ersöz: Mostly it's on the paying attention to details. It generally is hidden within some little details because the fundamentals are, the top market guys, they don't do mistakes and not everybody is getting that much of downloads or potential. So you have to pay attention to details and test as much as you can and fail even more. So it's like if you're not failing enough, you can't say that you tried enough. That's the way to be sure.

John Koetsier: Having talked to some of those biggest mobile developers in the world, I think that they do make some mistakes, but then they have some funds that cover over it. Or they learn from those mistakes really quickly.

Mert Ersöz: Like I said, you have to do mistakes, but not the same mistakes over and over again.

Peggy Anne Salz: That is true. That is definitely true. I have to ask because you're the type, Mert, I can feel it. 1.4 billion, it's impressive. There's got to be some hacks that got you there. What's your favourite or most unconventional hack that helped you scale and reach those results?

Mert Ersöz: I don't want to like disappoint you, but there's no hack, there isn't. It is hidden in the product and the market conditions and you cannot really fight with the data. That's one thing. You have to be always trying to understand your users, your users' behaviours, and try to make them actionable points out of them. So I don't think that's a hack, but if you do it correctly, I don't think there's a limit to reach. And that'll be the top guys, but we'll see. I'm not sure.

John Koetsier: I love it. I love it because some people, some marketers swear by finding that hack, finding that glitch in the matrix, finding that little thing that nobody else knows about the App Store or Google Play. And you tweak that and you tweak this and boom, something happens. And sometimes those things work. Absolutely. Right? And sometimes they're amazing, but there are so many other marketers who are chasing those every single day and every single week and forget the fundamentals of, hey, make a game that's fun to play.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly.

John Koetsier: Do some testing and market it and get better every day. Right? So I love that advice. Let's talk about retention a little bit as well as acquisition. Hey, acquisition is wonderful. Everybody likes filling the bucket. Nobody likes it if the bucket just leaks again, as fast as you filled it. What's your approach and how have you worked to convert those installs into engaged users who keep coming back into the game?

Mert Ersöz: You have to understand the behaviour. That's how I like to think. So it's, if you try the right tests to those users and try to understand the data without getting in love with your ideas, getting in love with what you think is fun, what you think is great and sticking with them. Instead, you have to listen to the users and make the changes they want. Sometimes it might be like, let's say nobody likes watching an ad, right? Nobody. But if you take away the reward that's from a game and then you can just watch your reviews and ratings going down because users want that type of opportunity to become more engaged with the game, to invest in the game and find ways within the game. And the other thing is the, what I think is this is a full funnel that you have to follow. So it will start with the first impression and ends with the churn, hopefully not, but it will someday.

John Koetsier: Realism.

Mert Ersöz: You have to paying attention to every conversion point, not only in the game, but also in the creatives too. So if you give them a false ad, you have to expect some of those people will stop playing at a certain point, but it might be profitable. We are doing it, but still you have to expect and see the results and act through them. Don't get in love with your ideas. Just rely on the data.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that as well. Looking at every touchpoint, it has to be a journey, looking at every aspect of the user journey, every aspect of user behaviour, as you do. We talked about the user journey now. Let's talk about your own journey, Mert, because you have an interesting one, indeed, because you are in the middle of a seismic change, right? You're moving from hyper-casual to casual. Why are you doing that?

Mert Ersöz: I think it's because we think we can do it. That's first things first. So we believe in, we can manage it, we can get through it. So the hyper-casual is a genre that I really like, because that shows you how to get people's attention, how to get everybody's attention in a similar concept, but in the business wise, it's limiting because if you're relying on ads and within a privacy centric world, it's limiting. And also, why not stepping up the game? So, this is the main aim because you cannot talk about hundreds of millions of dollars in hyper-casual, mostly, generally. There are, but in the casual market, sky is the limit. So, that's why, actually.

Peggy Anne Salz: And there's a lot going on there. You said yourself, it's not what it used to be. It went from hyper-casual to hybrid-casual. Now you're just looking at the casual part, right? And changing genres is really a switch. It's a big deal. First of all, to make the decision you're convinced, it's like, yes, we can do this, but what else should app publishers be thinking about or asking themselves before making that decision?

Mert Ersöz: There are lots of them. I think everything is going to change when you're changing from hyper-casual to casual because the monetization model, your UA strategy, everything is going to change. Let me go into a bit more detail. On the monetization side, since your product has changed, there will be no short-term cash flow, no short-term profits. You'll be aiming for a year, maybe two years, three years of payoff windows, and your game should make users engage with that game for many years, because that's how you make profits. And that's how you should be designing your UA strategy too.

And on the other end, when you're talking about UA strategy, you'll be starting to looking at payers, right? Anybody can watch ads about 13 years old, but who got the money to pay for a game. You have to have the extra money. That's the least thing that will limit your audience. That will be changing everything because you’ll start talking about plus 35 women audience. And that will make you end up with different kind of creatives and different kind of creative strategy. As I said, that's a full funnel and this is still a full funnel for casual too. And when you're aiming for 15 years old and 40-year-old ladies, your creatives should be different. That's...

John Koetsier: Really?

Mert Ersöz: I believe so.

John Koetsier: Well, this is super interesting, actually, because this is a massive shift. It's not just for you because you see an opportunity for games that last longer and have more value and can be more fun and generate more revenue. It's also something that's happening across the industry because as we've got privacy-safe attribution, as we lose audiences, as we lose retargeting capability, it's just a different reality. And it's hard to snipe high value users in hyper-casual games. And so that changes in your ad monetization. And it's hard to acquire users as well that you are known, you can acquire them cheaply or high value ones that you spend more for. So it's changing all that stuff. How's that changing your marketing as you switch genres?

Mert Ersöz: It's like even the metrics we are going to change. So we are keeping looking at (sounds like: RDAU and MDAU) generally short-term LTVs like Day Zero and stuff. But when you're aiming for a long-term retention and long-term monetization model, even your metrics will become like IAPs and payer users. And in the case that you don't know who are those, and you cannot really build up a strategy around them because you don't really know who they are. So, on the marketing side, that will be more than ever uncertainty. But you have...what I think is, when you don't make 101 mistakes and keep focusing on the fundamentals such as you have to make the game really good. And then you can rely on that product. And that's the aim. So I'm not trying to leave it on the game designers and product managers. I'm not trying to say that, but that is important.

John Koetsier: I'm not a bad marketer. You're a bad product developer.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. That's not my fault. I just got you users, you couldn’t monetize them.

John Koetsier: If that game wasn't so crappy, we'd have sold.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. And on the UA side, yes, there are less data from the same people with a changing world with a changing manner, but it is still the same. And like I said, on the fundamentals, that's not only a attribution issue, but you have to be creative on attribution and on the building up audiences with some potentials and other metrics to come up with. And at the end of the day, it's less deterministic. Not that the world has gone to hell or something. It's just deterministic models are not working anymore. All right. Let's go creative.

John Koetsier: Wonderful.

Peggy Anne Salz: So you love change. And I want to get back to that. Not only is it shifting genres, hyper-casual to casual, you're also balancing self-publishing with working with studios, including Voodoo. I just wonder how you're managing that because that's not just games, that's the entire structure. You're going to be independent and self-publishing on this side, and on this side, you're going to get along with studios. How does that work?

Mert Ersöz: That is rather easy when you work with the right partners, but...

John Koetsier: It's like, marriage is easy when you pick the right spouse. What's the big problem? Why is the divorce rate so high? It's easy. Just pick the right spouse. What's the problem?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, really. There's nothing to that.

Mert Ersöz: But the answer lies in the team, I think. The harmony should be there. And when you're surrounded with hard working people, and when they share the same passion with you, you can do this or any other thing. If that's not working, you couldn't just pick one of them and you couldn't do it either. So I think that is the thing. That's not the structure, that's not the other stuff, but that lies in the team and hardworking.

John Koetsier: I think what Mert is saying is that you spend some time dating potential partners before you give them a ring.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. But on the other hand, the Voodoo teams and Good Job Games teams, they’re monsters, and that somehow triggers us to benchmark our data with theirs and try to be better than them. That takes some work. So I think we are not that bad, but those guys are monsters.

Peggy Anne Salz: If it was only that simple, as you said, choosing the right partner. But that doesn't work in real life. Did for John and myself, but it doesn't often. I'd love to have some sort of checklist for finding that partner and even knowing how you can even think about self-publishing because a lot of companies, a lot of companies I'm talking to, they're like, "Yeah, we're going to self-publish, we're going to be independent. And then we're going to be dependent." Again, you have to ask yourself some questions, tough questions. What are some of those?

Mert Ersöz: I think you have to be sure that your partner is going to work with you in the line of your passions and your aims. In the means that if they're not sharing the data that you are asking for, or if they see you as competitors and compete with you in a hostile way, that's not going to work. You have to be working with a partner that tries to make you better in order to make a better partner for themself. And on the self-publishing side, you also meet with their requirements and you have to deliver. In the mobile marketing, it's all about performance. And if you're delivering everything is cool and achievable. And if you're not with the best partners, there are studios that cannot really work. And that's all about performance and delivering the results. That's the main thing I think.

John Koetsier: Yeah, absolutely. When things are going well, it's hard to have a bad partner, when things are going poorly, you know, hey, yeah, they're in it for the long haul and they're going to help us. Well, Mert, let's end here. We always ask for top three tips from our guests. So let's have your top three tips for mobile marketers in gaming.

Mert Ersöz: So my first will be, there is always room for improvement, so keep testing and fail enough. So that's the first one. And secondly, I think the most important thing is that you don't have to really figure it out all by yourself. You have to try to understand the leaders, what the best guys are doing and what they're interested in. And you have to understand why are they doing so, and copy it until you make it, actually. That's my second advice. And the third will be the team is the king. So like anything else, if everybody is smarter and better than you in the team, you have to keep working up. You have to be sure that you are the dumbest person in that room, but still be sure about you are trying your best.

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Love it. Well, Mert, I have to tell you something, you are the reason why Peggy and I do what we do, because sometimes we do these shows and it's a bit of work, right? But we live for the shows where it's fun, where we love talking to somebody who is engaged in the space, loves the space, knows the space, is trying stuff in the space, is super knowledgeable and also super humble about it. And you know what, is just happy to share that. So thank you so much for this episode. It's been amazing.

Mert Ersöz: Thank you. I just love you guys and try to engage with all of your content and try to make some time to look forward to them. And also, John, we watched so many of your shows when the ATT came up. So it was super helpful. You saved our lives.

John Koetsier: Wow.

Mert Ersöz: Because the people that Raymond said that...

John Koetsier: The invoice is in the mail, buddy, the invoice is in the mail.

Peggy Anne Salz: I think you have to do this sort of thing here. See John, it's all this. It's all this.

Mert Ersöz: And also, thank you guys for the opportunity. That's nice catching up with you and meeting up with you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Mert, my side as well. Great to have you, great learnings. Also humour, I can see you're into it. It's 8 p.m. in Turkey. There you are in the office full of coffee and all your work is in the background. Can't tear yourself away. Great to have you.

Mert Ersöz: Thank you, Peggy. And I will read your retention blog. I couldn't, but I will. I will read it and try to understand it.

Peggy Anne Salz: You're on, you're on.

Mert Ersöz: But still people are the same, the behaviour is the same. You are trying to understand the same people and you are trying to get attention from the same people with a changing world, with a changing manner, but it is still the same. And like I said, on the fundamentals, that's not only a attribution issue, but...

Peggy Anne Salz: So you love change. And I want to get back to that. Not only is it shifting genres, hyper-casual to casual, you're also balancing self-publishing with working with studios, including Voodoo. I just wonder how you're managing that because that's not just games, that's the entire structure. You're going to be independent and self-publishing on this side. And on this side, you're going to get along with studios. How does that work?

Mert Ersöz: That is rather easy when you work with the right partners, but...

John Koetsier: It's like, marriage is easy when you pick the right spouse. What's the big problem? Why is the divorce rate so high? It's easy. Just pick the right spouse. What's the problem?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, really. There's nothing to that.

Mert Ersöz: But the answer lies in the team, I think. The harmony should be there. And when you're surrounded with hard working people, and when they share the same passion with you, you can do this or any other thing. If that's not working, you couldn't just pick one of them and you couldn't do it either. So I think that is the thing. That's not the structure, that's not the other stuff, but that lies in the team and hardworking.

John Koetsier: I think what Mert is saying is that you spend some time dating potential partners before you give them a ring.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. But on the other hand, the Voodoo teams and Good Job Games teams, they’re monsters, and that somehow triggers us to benchmark our data with theirs and try to be better than them. That takes some work. So I think we are not that bad, but those guys are monsters.

Peggy Anne Salz: If it was only that simple, as you said, choosing the right partner. But that doesn't work in real life. Did for John and myself, but it doesn't often. I'd love to have some sort of checklist for finding that partner and even knowing how you can even think about self-publishing, because a lot of companies, a lot of companies I'm talking to, they're like, "Yeah, we're going to self-publish, we're going to be independent. And then we're going to be dependent." Again, you have to ask yourself some questions, tough questions. What are some of those?

Mert Ersöz: You have to be sure that your partner is going to work with you in the line of your passions and your aims. If they're not sharing the data that you are asking for, or if they see you as competitors and compete with you in a hostile way, that's not going to work. You have to be working with a partner that tries to make you better in order to make a better partner for themself. And on the self-publishing side, you also meet with their requirements and you have to deliver. In the mobile marketing, it's all about performance. And if you're delivering everything is cool and achievable. And if you're not with the best partners, there are studios that cannot really work. And that's all about performance and delivering the results. That's the main thing I think.

John Koetsier: Yeah, absolutely. When things are going well, it's hard to have a bad partner, when things are going poorly, you know, hey, yeah, they're in it for the long haul and they're going to help us. Well, Mert, let's end here. We always ask for top three tips from our guests. So let's have your top three tips for mobile marketers in gaming.

Mert Ersöz: So my first will be, there is always room for improvement, so keep testing and fail enough. So that's the first one. And secondly, I think the most important thing is that you don't have to really figure it out all by yourself. You have to try to understand the leaders, what the best guys are doing and what they're interested in. And you have to understand why are they doing so, and copy it until you make it, actually. That's my second advice. And the third will be the team is the king. So like anything else, if everybody is smarter and better than you in the team, you have to keep working up. You have to be sure that you are the dumbest person in that room, but still be sure about you are trying your best.

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Love it. Well, Mert, I have to tell you something, you are the reason why Peggy and I do what we do, because sometimes we do these shows and it's a bit of work, right? But we live for the shows where it's fun, where we love talking to somebody who is engaged in the space, loves the space, knows the space, is trying stuff in the space, is super knowledgeable and also super humble about it. And you know what, is just happy to share that. So thank you so much for this episode. It's been amazing.

Mert Ersöz: Thank you. I just love you guys and try to engage with all of your content and try to make some time to look forward to them. And also, John, we watched so many of your shows when the ATT came up. So it was super helpful. You saved our lives.

John Koetsier: Wow.

Mert Ersöz: Because the people that Raymond said that...

John Koetsier: The invoice is in the mail, buddy, the invoice is in the mail.

Peggy Anne Salz: I think you have to do this sort of thing here. See John, it's all this. It's all this.

Mert Ersöz: And also, thank you guys for the opportunity. That's nice catching up with you and meeting up with you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Mert, my side as well. Great to have you, great learnings. Also humour, I can see you're into it. It's 8 p.m. in Turkey. There you are in the office full of coffee and all your work is in the background. Can't tear yourself away. Great to have you.

May 11, 2022

Building a Fintech Super-app

Times Internet is a global behemoth with over 550 million users. Now the company is extending its reach globally from its home base in India.

In this episode, we chat with Machine Zone alum Vivek Girotra, who is building a fintech app for the Indian diaspora: tens of millions who live in the U.S., Europe, Asia, and elsewhere around the world. He gets deep into psychographics and demographics as well as the nuts and bolts of mobile growth.

We chat about:

  • Growing fintech apps
  • Understanding your users
  • Filling the funnel
  • Understanding when you have a winner
  • Using content to grow
  • Top 3 tips for fintech marketers

28 min

John Koetsier: Are people predictably irrational and can use behavioural psychology to grow mobile games. Welcome to "Mobile Heroes" origin stories, where we go one on one in-depth with mobile marketing experts. And today we have somebody who's pretty special. And I think he's been mainlining coffee all day. So it's going to be great. We're chatting with the head of marketing at a publisher with more than 1.4 billion downloads and an approach to user acquisition that leans heavily on behavioural economics. Peggy, who is it?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we have today Mert Ersöz. He is Head of Marketing at MagicLab Game Technologies. MagicLab designs, develops, publishes hyper-casual and casual games. Best known for some hits. John, as you said, 1.4 billion downloads, best known for Fidget Trading 3D, which I knew, Text And Drive, Destiny Run published with Voodoo, Run Race 3D, Fun Race 3D. He loves the best of list cherries. Yes. And Mert is not just loving his games, he's an all-around talent. As you said, he started in behavioural economics. Then he moved into gaming where he puts his deep knowledge of human behaviour to work in marketing games. And as he puts it, and as you said it, understanding predictably irrational behaviour sometimes provides benefits when you are publishing games. And we're going to find out all about that with you, Mert. Welcome.

Mert Ersöz: Hey, guys.

John Koetsier: I'm super pumped about this. I have interviewed Dan Ariely who wrote "Predictably Irrational." So the book actually on that, so that is very cool. He's a super interesting dude. Half of his face was bearded, half of his face wasn't. It was a bit of a challenge thing and I think he's also had some injuries in the past, but let's talk about mobile marketing and maybe your start about being irrational or predictive or whatever. What was your Eureka moment that triggered the move from studying behavioural economics to applying that to marketing games?

Mert Ersöz: I was doing a master's course on behavioural economics, and then the academy started to be a little bit limiting to me because it's not scalable and also limiting in terms of the potential and the impact you could make if you're not Dan, of course. And I like the games, since I was a child, I like the games. No, but who doesn't like games? And my friends, my childhood friends was already working in the field, so they were developing games. And at that time, I noticed that there was a job for me in the market. So that was my Eureka moment. So it's when they said there is multiple optimizations and UA activities and stuff. And I just said, "Whoa, let's do it."

Peggy Anne Salz: So you've had a string of top-ranking games and you've had views into what works, what doesn't work. What strategies do you think worked best to drive those installs at the start?

Mert Ersöz: What I think is like keep...what's most practical is the most theoretical, I think. So, you don't have the opportunity to make 101 mistakes, so you have to keep the fundamentals. And also following the trends and also leaders becomes handy on that one. So it's like, you don't have to figure out everything yourself. You have to understand what the top guys are doing. So that was actually what we did on those. And also we worked with great partners such as like Voodoo, Good Job, and they brought us some portion of that downloads. That helped too.

Peggy Anne Salz: So having a good blueprint, watching the market leaders, learning, learning from the best. What made the biggest performance difference in your UA strategy?

Mert Ersöz: Mostly it's on the paying attention to details. It generally is hidden within some little details because the fundamentals are, the top market guys, they don't do mistakes and not everybody is getting that much of downloads or potential. So you have to pay attention to details and test as much as you can and fail even more. So it's like if you're not failing enough, you can't say that you tried enough. That's the way to be sure.

John Koetsier: Having talked to some of those biggest mobile developers in the world, I think that they do make some mistakes, but then they have some funds that cover over it. Or they learn from those mistakes really quickly.

Mert Ersöz: Like I said, you have to do mistakes, but not the same mistakes over and over again.

Peggy Anne Salz: That is true. That is definitely true. I have to ask because you're the type, Mert, I can feel it. 1.4 billion, it's impressive. There's got to be some hacks that got you there. What's your favourite or most unconventional hack that helped you scale and reach those results?

Mert Ersöz: I don't want to like disappoint you, but there's no hack, there isn't. It is hidden in the product and the market conditions and you cannot really fight with the data. That's one thing. You have to be always trying to understand your users, your users' behaviours, and try to make them actionable points out of them. So I don't think that's a hack, but if you do it correctly, I don't think there's a limit to reach. And that'll be the top guys, but we'll see. I'm not sure.

John Koetsier: I love it. I love it because some people, some marketers swear by finding that hack, finding that glitch in the matrix, finding that little thing that nobody else knows about the App Store or Google Play. And you tweak that and you tweak this and boom, something happens. And sometimes those things work. Absolutely. Right? And sometimes they're amazing, but there are so many other marketers who are chasing those every single day and every single week and forget the fundamentals of, hey, make a game that's fun to play.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly.

John Koetsier: Do some testing and market it and get better every day. Right? So I love that advice. Let's talk about retention a little bit as well as acquisition. Hey, acquisition is wonderful. Everybody likes filling the bucket. Nobody likes it if the bucket just leaks again, as fast as you filled it. What's your approach and how have you worked to convert those installs into engaged users who keep coming back into the game?

Mert Ersöz: You have to understand the behaviour. That's how I like to think. So it's, if you try the right tests to those users and try to understand the data without getting in love with your ideas, getting in love with what you think is fun, what you think is great and sticking with them. Instead, you have to listen to the users and make the changes they want. Sometimes it might be like, let's say nobody likes watching an ad, right? Nobody. But if you take away the reward that's from a game and then you can just watch your reviews and ratings going down because users want that type of opportunity to become more engaged with the game, to invest in the game and find ways within the game. And the other thing is the, what I think is this is a full funnel that you have to follow. So it will start with the first impression and ends with the churn, hopefully not, but it will someday.

John Koetsier: Realism.

Mert Ersöz: You have to paying attention to every conversion point, not only in the game, but also in the creatives too. So if you give them a false ad, you have to expect some of those people will stop playing at a certain point, but it might be profitable. We are doing it, but still you have to expect and see the results and act through them. Don't get in love with your ideas. Just rely on the data.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that as well. Looking at every touchpoint, it has to be a journey, looking at every aspect of the user journey, every aspect of user behaviour, as you do. We talked about the user journey now. Let's talk about your own journey, Mert, because you have an interesting one, indeed, because you are in the middle of a seismic change, right? You're moving from hyper-casual to casual. Why are you doing that?

Mert Ersöz: I think it's because we think we can do it. That's first things first. So we believe in, we can manage it, we can get through it. So the hyper-casual is a genre that I really like, because that shows you how to get people's attention, how to get everybody's attention in a similar concept, but in the business wise, it's limiting because if you're relying on ads and within a privacy centric world, it's limiting. And also, why not stepping up the game? So, this is the main aim because you cannot talk about hundreds of millions of dollars in hyper-casual, mostly, generally. There are, but in the casual market, sky is the limit. So, that's why, actually.

Peggy Anne Salz: And there's a lot going on there. You said yourself, it's not what it used to be. It went from hyper-casual to hybrid-casual. Now you're just looking at the casual part, right? And changing genres is really a switch. It's a big deal. First of all, to make the decision you're convinced, it's like, yes, we can do this, but what else should app publishers be thinking about or asking themselves before making that decision?

Mert Ersöz: There are lots of them. I think everything is going to change when you're changing from hyper-casual to casual because the monetization model, your UA strategy, everything is going to change. Let me go into a bit more detail. On the monetization side, since your product has changed, there will be no short-term cash flow, no short-term profits. You'll be aiming for a year, maybe two years, three years of payoff windows, and your game should make users engage with that game for many years, because that's how you make profits. And that's how you should be designing your UA strategy too.

And on the other end, when you're talking about UA strategy, you'll be starting to looking at payers, right? Anybody can watch ads about 13 years old, but who got the money to pay for a game. You have to have the extra money. That's the least thing that will limit your audience. That will be changing everything because you’ll start talking about plus 35 women audience. And that will make you end up with different kind of creatives and different kind of creative strategy. As I said, that's a full funnel and this is still a full funnel for casual too. And when you're aiming for 15 years old and 40-year-old ladies, your creatives should be different. That's...

John Koetsier: Really?

Mert Ersöz: I believe so.

John Koetsier: Well, this is super interesting, actually, because this is a massive shift. It's not just for you because you see an opportunity for games that last longer and have more value and can be more fun and generate more revenue. It's also something that's happening across the industry because as we've got privacy-safe attribution, as we lose audiences, as we lose retargeting capability, it's just a different reality. And it's hard to snipe high value users in hyper-casual games. And so that changes in your ad monetization. And it's hard to acquire users as well that you are known, you can acquire them cheaply or high value ones that you spend more for. So it's changing all that stuff. How's that changing your marketing as you switch genres?

Mert Ersöz: It's like even the metrics we are going to change. So we are keeping looking at (sounds like: RDAU and MDAU) generally short-term LTVs like Day Zero and stuff. But when you're aiming for a long-term retention and long-term monetization model, even your metrics will become like IAPs and payer users. And in the case that you don't know who are those, and you cannot really build up a strategy around them because you don't really know who they are. So, on the marketing side, that will be more than ever uncertainty. But you have...what I think is, when you don't make 101 mistakes and keep focusing on the fundamentals such as you have to make the game really good. And then you can rely on that product. And that's the aim. So I'm not trying to leave it on the game designers and product managers. I'm not trying to say that, but that is important.

John Koetsier: I'm not a bad marketer. You're a bad product developer.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. That's not my fault. I just got you users, you couldn’t monetize them.

John Koetsier: If that game wasn't so crappy, we'd have sold.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. And on the UA side, yes, there are less data from the same people with a changing world with a changing manner, but it is still the same. And like I said, on the fundamentals, that's not only a attribution issue, but you have to be creative on attribution and on the building up audiences with some potentials and other metrics to come up with. And at the end of the day, it's less deterministic. Not that the world has gone to hell or something. It's just deterministic models are not working anymore. All right. Let's go creative.

John Koetsier: Wonderful.

Peggy Anne Salz: So you love change. And I want to get back to that. Not only is it shifting genres, hyper-casual to casual, you're also balancing self-publishing with working with studios, including Voodoo. I just wonder how you're managing that because that's not just games, that's the entire structure. You're going to be independent and self-publishing on this side, and on this side, you're going to get along with studios. How does that work?

Mert Ersöz: That is rather easy when you work with the right partners, but...

John Koetsier: It's like, marriage is easy when you pick the right spouse. What's the big problem? Why is the divorce rate so high? It's easy. Just pick the right spouse. What's the problem?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, really. There's nothing to that.

Mert Ersöz: But the answer lies in the team, I think. The harmony should be there. And when you're surrounded with hard working people, and when they share the same passion with you, you can do this or any other thing. If that's not working, you couldn't just pick one of them and you couldn't do it either. So I think that is the thing. That's not the structure, that's not the other stuff, but that lies in the team and hardworking.

John Koetsier: I think what Mert is saying is that you spend some time dating potential partners before you give them a ring.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. But on the other hand, the Voodoo teams and Good Job Games teams, they’re monsters, and that somehow triggers us to benchmark our data with theirs and try to be better than them. That takes some work. So I think we are not that bad, but those guys are monsters.

Peggy Anne Salz: If it was only that simple, as you said, choosing the right partner. But that doesn't work in real life. Did for John and myself, but it doesn't often. I'd love to have some sort of checklist for finding that partner and even knowing how you can even think about self-publishing because a lot of companies, a lot of companies I'm talking to, they're like, "Yeah, we're going to self-publish, we're going to be independent. And then we're going to be dependent." Again, you have to ask yourself some questions, tough questions. What are some of those?

Mert Ersöz: I think you have to be sure that your partner is going to work with you in the line of your passions and your aims. In the means that if they're not sharing the data that you are asking for, or if they see you as competitors and compete with you in a hostile way, that's not going to work. You have to be working with a partner that tries to make you better in order to make a better partner for themself. And on the self-publishing side, you also meet with their requirements and you have to deliver. In the mobile marketing, it's all about performance. And if you're delivering everything is cool and achievable. And if you're not with the best partners, there are studios that cannot really work. And that's all about performance and delivering the results. That's the main thing I think.

John Koetsier: Yeah, absolutely. When things are going well, it's hard to have a bad partner, when things are going poorly, you know, hey, yeah, they're in it for the long haul and they're going to help us. Well, Mert, let's end here. We always ask for top three tips from our guests. So let's have your top three tips for mobile marketers in gaming.

Mert Ersöz: So my first will be, there is always room for improvement, so keep testing and fail enough. So that's the first one. And secondly, I think the most important thing is that you don't have to really figure it out all by yourself. You have to try to understand the leaders, what the best guys are doing and what they're interested in. And you have to understand why are they doing so, and copy it until you make it, actually. That's my second advice. And the third will be the team is the king. So like anything else, if everybody is smarter and better than you in the team, you have to keep working up. You have to be sure that you are the dumbest person in that room, but still be sure about you are trying your best.

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Love it. Well, Mert, I have to tell you something, you are the reason why Peggy and I do what we do, because sometimes we do these shows and it's a bit of work, right? But we live for the shows where it's fun, where we love talking to somebody who is engaged in the space, loves the space, knows the space, is trying stuff in the space, is super knowledgeable and also super humble about it. And you know what, is just happy to share that. So thank you so much for this episode. It's been amazing.

Mert Ersöz: Thank you. I just love you guys and try to engage with all of your content and try to make some time to look forward to them. And also, John, we watched so many of your shows when the ATT came up. So it was super helpful. You saved our lives.

John Koetsier: Wow.

Mert Ersöz: Because the people that Raymond said that...

John Koetsier: The invoice is in the mail, buddy, the invoice is in the mail.

Peggy Anne Salz: I think you have to do this sort of thing here. See John, it's all this. It's all this.

Mert Ersöz: And also, thank you guys for the opportunity. That's nice catching up with you and meeting up with you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Mert, my side as well. Great to have you, great learnings. Also humour, I can see you're into it. It's 8 p.m. in Turkey. There you are in the office full of coffee and all your work is in the background. Can't tear yourself away. Great to have you.

Mert Ersöz: Thank you, Peggy. And I will read your retention blog. I couldn't, but I will. I will read it and try to understand it.

Peggy Anne Salz: You're on, you're on.

Mert Ersöz: But still people are the same, the behaviour is the same. You are trying to understand the same people and you are trying to get attention from the same people with a changing world, with a changing manner, but it is still the same. And like I said, on the fundamentals, that's not only a attribution issue, but...

Peggy Anne Salz: So you love change. And I want to get back to that. Not only is it shifting genres, hyper-casual to casual, you're also balancing self-publishing with working with studios, including Voodoo. I just wonder how you're managing that because that's not just games, that's the entire structure. You're going to be independent and self-publishing on this side. And on this side, you're going to get along with studios. How does that work?

Mert Ersöz: That is rather easy when you work with the right partners, but...

John Koetsier: It's like, marriage is easy when you pick the right spouse. What's the big problem? Why is the divorce rate so high? It's easy. Just pick the right spouse. What's the problem?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, really. There's nothing to that.

Mert Ersöz: But the answer lies in the team, I think. The harmony should be there. And when you're surrounded with hard working people, and when they share the same passion with you, you can do this or any other thing. If that's not working, you couldn't just pick one of them and you couldn't do it either. So I think that is the thing. That's not the structure, that's not the other stuff, but that lies in the team and hardworking.

John Koetsier: I think what Mert is saying is that you spend some time dating potential partners before you give them a ring.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

Mert Ersöz: Exactly. But on the other hand, the Voodoo teams and Good Job Games teams, they’re monsters, and that somehow triggers us to benchmark our data with theirs and try to be better than them. That takes some work. So I think we are not that bad, but those guys are monsters.

Peggy Anne Salz: If it was only that simple, as you said, choosing the right partner. But that doesn't work in real life. Did for John and myself, but it doesn't often. I'd love to have some sort of checklist for finding that partner and even knowing how you can even think about self-publishing, because a lot of companies, a lot of companies I'm talking to, they're like, "Yeah, we're going to self-publish, we're going to be independent. And then we're going to be dependent." Again, you have to ask yourself some questions, tough questions. What are some of those?

Mert Ersöz: You have to be sure that your partner is going to work with you in the line of your passions and your aims. If they're not sharing the data that you are asking for, or if they see you as competitors and compete with you in a hostile way, that's not going to work. You have to be working with a partner that tries to make you better in order to make a better partner for themself. And on the self-publishing side, you also meet with their requirements and you have to deliver. In the mobile marketing, it's all about performance. And if you're delivering everything is cool and achievable. And if you're not with the best partners, there are studios that cannot really work. And that's all about performance and delivering the results. That's the main thing I think.

John Koetsier: Yeah, absolutely. When things are going well, it's hard to have a bad partner, when things are going poorly, you know, hey, yeah, they're in it for the long haul and they're going to help us. Well, Mert, let's end here. We always ask for top three tips from our guests. So let's have your top three tips for mobile marketers in gaming.

Mert Ersöz: So my first will be, there is always room for improvement, so keep testing and fail enough. So that's the first one. And secondly, I think the most important thing is that you don't have to really figure it out all by yourself. You have to try to understand the leaders, what the best guys are doing and what they're interested in. And you have to understand why are they doing so, and copy it until you make it, actually. That's my second advice. And the third will be the team is the king. So like anything else, if everybody is smarter and better than you in the team, you have to keep working up. You have to be sure that you are the dumbest person in that room, but still be sure about you are trying your best.

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Love it. Well, Mert, I have to tell you something, you are the reason why Peggy and I do what we do, because sometimes we do these shows and it's a bit of work, right? But we live for the shows where it's fun, where we love talking to somebody who is engaged in the space, loves the space, knows the space, is trying stuff in the space, is super knowledgeable and also super humble about it. And you know what, is just happy to share that. So thank you so much for this episode. It's been amazing.

Mert Ersöz: Thank you. I just love you guys and try to engage with all of your content and try to make some time to look forward to them. And also, John, we watched so many of your shows when the ATT came up. So it was super helpful. You saved our lives.

John Koetsier: Wow.

Mert Ersöz: Because the people that Raymond said that...

John Koetsier: The invoice is in the mail, buddy, the invoice is in the mail.

Peggy Anne Salz: I think you have to do this sort of thing here. See John, it's all this. It's all this.

Mert Ersöz: And also, thank you guys for the opportunity. That's nice catching up with you and meeting up with you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Mert, my side as well. Great to have you, great learnings. Also humour, I can see you're into it. It's 8 p.m. in Turkey. There you are in the office full of coffee and all your work is in the background. Can't tear yourself away. Great to have you.

May 4, 2022

Growing Location and Travel Apps Again (Finally!)

Is it happy days for location-based apps again? We’re getting back to some kind of normal and apps for places, travel, restaurants, hikes, flights, hotels, beaches, and bookshops are back in action.

Today we chat with a super-interesting location-based app called Bimble, which is “counter-mapping” the planet … finding all the cool places that aren’t big on Google Maps and highlighting the small wonders of the world. In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we chat with Julia Mallaby and Fatima Zaidi of Bimble. They launched 3 weeks before lockdown … but survived COVID! And now they’re doing better than ever.

We chat about:

  • Building the ‘Spotify of Travel’
  • Filling the upper funnel of app users
  • Engaging existing users
  • Building buzz via TikTok influencers
  • Creating emotional connection that drives retention
  • Building real community


29 min

John Koetsier: Is it back to happy days for location-based travel-centric go places in real-life apps again? Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored," where co-host, Peggy Anne Salz, and I interview the world's best mobile minds like those we have today. My name is John Koetsier, and today we're talking about location, places, travel, restaurants, hotels, all those good things, bookshops, beaches, best places in the world, how to get there, what to do. It's been tough for travel apps, obviously, for a couple of years, but they're kind of coming back. Peggy, who are we chatting with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we have a dynamic duo of sorts, John. I'll start off...

John Koetsier: Batman? Robin?

Peggy Anne Salz: In a way. They're championing something quite different out there, you know, travel apps with a twist. So I will introduce. We have Julia Mallaby. She's co-founder of Bimble. She has a long track record in product management, innovation, marketing background, and she has worked in countries across Europe and at companies, including L'Oréal and Cody, all part of the globe-trotting routine. I believe that sparked the idea for the app company she has co-founded with her other corporate nomad colleague. And speaking of colleagues, colleagues say Julia has a "real" appetite and interest in new ideas, and when she combines creativity and commercial know-how, the results can sometimes be truly joyous. So it's a joy to have you on the show, Julia.

Julia Mallaby: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Peggy Anne Salz: And I said there were two, John. We have Fatima Zaidi. She's community manager, B2C, at Bimble. Also very creative. Visual is her medium, taking photos, making videos with impact. She's back at Bimble where she started as an intern after spending a cool time, probably in Berlin, working in a film collective. Her colleagues describe her as entrepreneurial and energetic, and she's going to bring that energy to our show. So welcome as well.

Fatima Zaidi: Yes, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

John Koetsier: Awesome. We are super pumped to have you both. Thank you for joining us. Julia, let's start with you. Bimble is a social platform for places. Tell us about it. What does it do? How does it work?

Julia Mallaby: Yeah. So Bimble is a platform where you can keep all the places that you love. So that means that as you go to places that you enjoy like a restaurant or a bar or whatever, you can put it onto Bimble to remember it for later just like in the old days people used to collect business cards and put them in a wallet, right? So now you can put them onto Bimble and keep all of them, but equally, when you're researching places to go, whether that is hearing about places on Instagram or from a friend in a conversation or reading an article or hearing about something on the radio, you can add it to Bimble to remember for later and build up your target places that you want to go to in the future. So it's really where you collect all the places that you love. And because people are collecting places that they love, you can then explore other people's places that they love. So it's a social space for sharing your favourite places. If you think about Spotify as, you know, where you create your playlists of the music that you love and then you can explore other people's playlists similarly on them when you're creating playlists.

John Koetsier: That is really cool. And I was one of the early users of Foursquare. And I currently use Swarm right now. Maybe I should take a look at this. It sounds interesting. It's related, obviously, different, but very cool as well. Now you started the company in the middle of COVID. How did that work for you?

Julia Mallaby: Yeah, we did. We literally launched our app three weeks before lockdown, so that was not good timing. And, you know, when that happened, we really thought like, "Are we going to make it through this?" But, of course, we had no idea whether that was going to be, you know, a three-week problem or what it turned out to be, which is pretty much a two-year problem. And having an app for listing places when nobody is going anywhere is clearly not ideal, but what we found was that amazingly, we just carried on growing through that period. So, actually, people were coming onto the platform to either reminisce about places they'd been to in the past that they just were just like, "Oh, I remember that place," like, just doing it for fun like a scrapbooking kind of activity, or they were making plans for the future sort of dream lists of places that they'd love to go to Sunday. Or, and this kind of came a little bit later, they started to worry about the businesses that they loved and they wanted to list them to shout them out to support them, and that became a whole other side of the way people were using Bimble during that time.

John Koetsier: Amazing.

Peggy Anne Salz: I love that, shouting out places that you miss, and that is part of the experience, but now it's different, right? We're reopening. And I've read, you've seen a surge of activity, you know. We're out finally. It's like someone let us loose 3x. How has that changed how you acquire users for your app? Because now we have choice.

Julia Mallaby: Yeah. So now it's really...As people are going out, we're seeing two things, actually, both surge and acquisition, so people just coming on and joining Bimble a lot more than before, but also a big surge in activity and just people who were already on the platform in the past and who are now coming much more often. And for us, that's the most exciting part really. We saw people who joined through COVID and who came on once, twice, you know, like a couple of times a month maybe and they were checking in and adding some places. But now what they're doing is they're coming much more often. So we're seeing actually two...We're seeing sort of two groups of people. The average is that they're coming on three times a month now, three to four times a month, but we're also seeing a whole group of people that are coming on really much more often, 11 plus times in a month. And because they're on the go, they're out, they're going to places, they're adding new places to their list, they're making new plans, they're planning their holidays, their weekends away, their evenings out. So we're seeing all that activity really increase. And in terms of how it changes the way that we talk to our audience, and we encourage people to come in, it's actually that we've now split two different kinds of activities. So we're still doing our acquisition, which is through Instagram, advertising, mixed with brand ambassadors that are sharing interesting content with their audiences and they're creating Bimble list and then they're telling their audiences about the list that they're making. So that's what we're doing on the pure acquisition side, but we've now launched a whole campaign of what we call middle funnel activity. That means bringing people back into the app, talking to people who are already part of the app, encouraging them to add more descriptions to their places once they've been. Maybe they had lists of places that they wanted to go to. Now they've gone to those places and we want them to go back and say why they liked them, what they liked about them. If they did like them, then they should add a comment. If they didn't, they should remove it from their list because Bimble is your list of places that you actually do love.

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Fatima, let's turn to you. So you're building playlists of places, which is a cool idea. And, I mean, Julia talked about, hey, this is kind of like Spotify, right? You can check out somebody else's playlists. How does that work? How does that feel? How's that built into your user acquisition?

Fatima Zaidi: Yeah. I mean, one thing I love about Bimble is that it is so community-driven. There is a space for whatever your interests are on our platform. So a big part of my role is actually curating a lot of the content we see, so stuff you see on that Discovery page when you launch into our app. A lot of that is handpicked by our kind of team led by me. And what I try to do with that is tap into the content I see on the app that represents the love that people have for the places that they're sharing. So one of my favourite lists I saw recently was a guy who did a list called Geek Culture in London. And he basically made a list of his favourite comic bookstores and places to get anime stuff. And he basically completely celebrated everything that represents him and his community in the places in his city. So I loved that. I also saw one recently, a fabric store, because there was a girl who does...She like thrift flips. She goes to thrift stores and then saw these cool outfits and so she put a list of fabric stores on Bimble. And that is basically what I think the beauty is, your playlist of places. It represents you, who you are in your city or your town or wherever you are in the world.

John Koetsier: I can totally see that working well in user acquisition because the filter I put on that is I love hiking, I love walking and finding somebody's playlist of the best hikes, the best walks in an area that I might be going to or visiting in my own area or in a nearby area, that would be a reason to check it out. That makes a ton of sense. Talk about the channel mix a little bit. You're super visual. Peggy has said, and Peggy actually met you at an event with TikTok influencers. Is that one of your main channels?

Fatima Zaidi: Actually, it's quite a new area for us. We've recently started working with brand ambassadors, most of whom are TikTok creators, but we also create our own content, largely myself or other interns, but Instagram is actually one of our big channels. We grew a massive community on there, organically actually. And, you know, people on Instagram, they have followed Bimble along on the whole story, so through lockdown and this kind of growth and with our new feature releases when followers and following came out, and with our most recent release which is map. And it's awesome. Like, I try my best to respond to every single comment. We all do as a team, both the negative stuff and the positive stuff. But we were really lucky. We did a team trip back to New York because New York is an area of interest and just love the kind of independent businesses there, the restaurants, the kind of passion that people have in New York neighbourhoods or their neighbourhood. So we were out there meeting people, influencers, business owners, and we had people giving us recommendations, "Hey, you should check out," from our Instagram responding to us in the DM, "You should go check out this restaurant. We think you'll love it," or just following us along on the trip, people telling us to come to their cities, which obviously, we'd love to do at some point. So, yeah, Instagram is a big channel for us. Twitter as well, to a point, we've had a blog, and actually, I will go into that. So whilst visual is a massive medium for us, I mean, I'm definitely the generation of short-form content. We also love our long-form content. So we put out a blog, weekly blog. We share the kind of magic behind the places. So whilst you get the kind of immediate satisfaction of how cool it looks on TikTok, if you really want to know the ins and outs of that business, either from the business owner or from someone who's got a really special connection with that place, we also release this weekly blog which I think is quite a special space. So yeah, that weekly blog goes out on our Twitter too.

John Koetsier: Peggy, this has got to be the best business of all to expense your personal travel as a business expense. Come on.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was thinking that everywhere, finding these stories. And one of the stories that you show a lot is the independent business. You said it yourself, Julia, you know, people were just saying, "Hey, you know, a call out to my favourite business. I hope it's still there. My local spots." It's great to want to support small business, but it's also a crowded space. I mean, you got Tripadvisor, Yelp, Foursquare. Maybe sometimes some businesses are not thrilled with the rating system, but that's a different story. How do you stand out and get the attention of small business?

Julia Mallaby: So I think that the rating system issue is like, you know, a huge point because basically, we talk to our community all the time and that includes the businesses, obviously. So we speak to business owners a lot, and what they have told us over and over is that they feel that the platforms that use the ratings and review system and that ratings and reviews algorithm that then decides whether or not a place is easy to find is a really scary hostile space for them. So basically, they feel that Tripadvisor or Yelp or Foursquare or Google, these are all places where they are watching to be sure that they don't get a bad review. Like, a bad review can just knock them out. So their main feeling about those spaces is is it okay? Is it okay? Like, nervous, right? Whereas with Bimble, what they see is a space where people are only sharing places that they love. So there's nothing negative. Nobody is saying anything negative. We don't have any star rating system at all. It's all based on people's personal preferences, right? So just like with Spotify, we don't have a star rating system on Spotify. So we have a system where we will match you up with people that have similar taste to you so that you can find places that you will love. And so they look at Bimble and they say, "Well, Bimble feels like a village. It feels like a home. It feels like our home." That's what those businesses say. It feels like a space that is celebrating businesses like ours where we can feel confident that people are there because they enjoy businesses like us. And the great thing about that for us, you know, going forward as we start to build out more features which will be there to service those businesses is that they feel very comfortable at the idea of using our services to spread the word because they know that the people at the other end are actually looking for interesting content about businesses like theirs. They want to go to those sorts of places. So they don't feel like they're bombarding people with any information through that. It's not an advertising space for them. It's a space for them to build a community, for us to build a community for the people that come onto the platform to find like-minded people and to find businesses that they enjoy.

John Koetsier: One of the things you're doing, Fatima, is connecting influencers and small businesses. How does that work, and why are you doing that?

Fatima Zaidi: I kind of see influencers as part of an ecosystem in Bimble. So we are helping small businesses build an audience with themselves, and influencers are part of that ecosystem because if you come to the platform having seen someone's cool video on TikTok and you know that you can find those places in one list on one map, it's really easy access. You then might start to discover. Let's say you've seen a place, someone has listed that. You're like, "Oh, I quite like the look of some of her other places. She's quite a lot like me." So you start discovering more businesses. You re-list them, so you add them to your own place lists. It's essentially part of this ongoing flywheel where businesses get to meet and grow their own audiences on Bimble. And Julia, just to kind of carry on from what she said, we do hope to kind of bring out tools, hopefully, towards the latter part of this year for those businesses to directly communicate with that audience. And I think a really special place and in a way that they can't do so far on other channels.

Julia Mallaby: And just to jump in, so we have a very different way of dealing with this relationship between brand ambassadors or influencers and the businesses because where most businesses would be in a situation where they would be paying a brand ambassador to come to their business and write about it, we can pay a brand ambassador to list the businesses that they love and not tell them where. They get to choose the businesses that they love. So it's much more authentic. It's real. It's the actual places that that person has chosen. We would never tell them what to list. And so because of that, that information and that sort of celebration of those businesses is really much more valuable.

Peggy Anne Salz: I just have to ask a quick question here because so many marketers are talking about this. This is why I met you, Fatima, as well, you know, you need creators to create. They have to contribute. That's the lifeblood of your app. That's what drives the sessions. Can you share anything that works really well or maybe doesn't work at all?

Fatima Zaidi: Yeah. So we actually have around 30% of all users that come creating content, and what we do find when we study the curve is that people who start to add more than 10 places, they come back to the app and they add, and they add, and they add. So it's basically using, as Julia said, middle of funnel marketing activity, push notification strategy, kind of marketing, and also just reminding on our social channels that part of the experience of Bimble is sharing your own places. But, you know, it is a twofold process. There are some users who are going to be just browsers like it's the case on many social media platforms these days. We just learn how to cater to both those people, and there's different messaging. And when we look at their behaviours, there's different messaging depending on whether you are a browser or whether you are a creator. And it's trying to push those people who show the early signs of being a creator into being full-blown, coming back to the app, training them into the habit of I went to a really cool place and I'm going to share it.

John Koetsier: I love the words that you're using, creator and then browser, rather than consumer. I notice that that was chosen. I wonder...You look at different networks and you think, you know, how much do people create and how much do people consume on different platforms? I was thinking, Peggy, you know, on TikTok, it's like creator and zombie but, you know, maybe that's just me. I could just be me. You have a new feature, that is mapping, and you've talked about counter-mapping the world. Now, this comes from a very interesting place that is super relevant right now, and that's Ukraine. Tell us about that.

Julia Mallaby: Yeah. So if you think the lockdown was a problem for us, the Ukrainian war has been a much bigger problem for us, not in terms of hitting our business because actually, it hasn't knocked our business, but in terms of, you know, how we've all been during this period. It has been really difficult because we have 11 Ukrainian team members. We're a very small company, so 11 people is more than half of our company. And we are very close to them because we talk to them, you know, every day. Before the war, Francesca, my co-founder and I were going there every month, and, you know, they are people that we've been building this business together with them. Obviously, they're very important part of our team. Since the wars began, we have been talking to them all the time. We've been supporting them in their evacuation process. So they've been, you know, moving into Western Ukraine. Some of them have been allowed out of the country but many of them, of course, can't because men are not allowed out of the country. And so they are in displaced accommodations. So, you know, we've helped them to find places to stay, and in those places, after two weeks of, you know, finding their feet, they actually requested to come back to work, which has been absolutely...We couldn't believe it. It has been absolutely amazing.

But the reality is the reason that we went to Ukraine in the first place, the reason we decided to work with people there and hire people there was because we had been amazed by the spirit of the Ukrainians, you know, they are creative, they are hardworking, they are ambitious, they are resilient, they are optimistic. And all of those strengths that we loved about them and that led us to build a team there, we've now seen in the way that they behave through this war and we can see it all over the news, but we also see it in our own team. So they requested to come back to work -because they said that they wanted to get out of that obsessive, you know, watching the news and keeping up-to-date with everything and being on Twitter all day long. So they started working again, not all of them full-time but, you know, those that want to tune that felt that they could, and now everybody is working and they absolutely wanted to bring this big new feature that we planned to market. So they wanted to finish the feature and they wanted to release it into the market. And it has been...I mean, our proudest moment ever since we started this business was releasing maps from a team in a war zone. It just feels, you know, incredible. And it is our biggest feature that we've released this year. So counter-mapping the world. What do we mean by that? If you look at an ordinary map or most maps, right? Google Maps, for example, those maps surface the big things, but you can find the small things when you scroll in but they surface the big things. The things that you see first on the map are the big landmarks and the big chains and the tourist spots. Our map surfaces the little places that people love. So it doesn't mean people, of course, may love landmarks. I'm not saying that, but I'm just saying that the landmarks, you know, they're the ones that are harder to see on our map. The things that stand out are the places that people are listing. So that's what I mean by counter-mapping. It's bringing out the small places and creating a map that's the reflection of our community.

John Koetsier: I love that. I love that.

Peggy Anne Salz: Looks great.

John Koetsier: I have to think back to...I grew up in the oldest city in British Columbia, which is New Westminster, which won't seem old to people who live in the U.K. a couple of 100 years, maybe, right? And there's a street in New Westminster called Bent Street which is sort of shaped like a square. It's the only one I know where there's actual central square and then houses or apartments all around it. And you cannot find this. It's almost impossible. You have to happen upon. Even if you know it's there, you can't really find it, but it's kind of a cool spot and it's one of the things that I would highlight on a map of lesser-known places. So, absolutely love that.

Julia Mallaby: Fantastic. Fantastic.

Peggy Anne Salz: Now you have to get it, John. Now you have to share it. Now we all want to know and follow you there. I think I was reading also that you have something like 300,000 places on your map now?

Julia Mallaby: Yeah. So that's right, 300,000 places have been added to Bimble so far. And actually, in this last, you know, period, this last week since we launched map, we saw a huge surge. So we were getting about 4,000 places a week, and in this last week, it has gone up to over 6,000. So, you know, we can see that as soon as we show people on a map where the places are, they start to want to fill in the gaps. You know, they look at the map and they're like, "Oh, there's a place missing here that's really important. I want to add that." So that's really interesting to see.

Peggy Anne Salz: It's what people care about, and brands like that too. They like to be associated with what we care about because then they're part of a conversation that's emotional and it's empathetic and it's where they want to be. What's your advice to app companies if they want to build a community to attract brands as well as an audience? Fatima, I ask you.

Fatima Zaidi: So I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. It's about tapping into communities that are real. Something I do actually love about where the digital space is going, like, for example, even on TikTok is the small little core groups you see, like obviously, Travel Talk is quite a big one and particularly relevant to us, but kind of based on what I was saying earlier, I like that you can find the people who are into sewing or plant moms, or I don't know, K-pop, Twitter, whatever. And so I think it's helpful to talk to people who have actually an emotional connection to something and that, as I explained earlier, is very much possible to do on Bimble. And so brands have just another kind of way of talking to actual people and passions, essentially people and their passions and their places.

John Koetsier: Very cool. Very cool. Well, we have to draw this to a close and we'll end it with the question that Peggy and I always ask to the mobile experts that we bring on, and we ask for three top tips. So maybe we'll tag-team. We'll start with Julia. We'll go to Fatima, we'll go back to Julia. Three top tips for location-based apps. Julia, why don't you start?

Julia Mallaby: Wow. Okay. My first top tip for a location-based app would be to look at the space of what's going on in locations and try to understand what kind of person isn't being catered to. So don't think about what kind of place, initially, think about what kind of person is not finding what they need out there.

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Fatima, your turn.

Fatima Zaidi: Okay. That's tricky, but I think mine is going to be, especially from a content marketing side, don't forget the magic in places. So they're kind of it's not just about how pretty it looks for a photo, the actual magic of why we care about them. It's very true that our memories and therefore our stories that we have to tell are often very intimately connected with place. So really tap into that storytelling. Get your audience to share those stories, get the places to share those stories. You share your own stories. I think that's important.

John Koetsier: Absolutely love it. Sometimes the most magical places are the ones we can't even remember where we were.

John Koetsier: Julia, back to you. Julia, back to you for the third tip.

Julia Mallaby: Okay. So my third one is just about the tool. Make sure that the tool is a useful tool. So it's not only about enjoyment. It's not only about browsing. It's not only about feeling good. It's actually just useful, you know. And so I would really say our experience has always been that the biggest upticks we get come from product improvements. So as the product becomes more useful, people are going to use it more. That's it.

John Koetsier: Right, right, right. And marketers everywhere rejoice as they say, "Yes, I told you it was the product. Come on."

Peggy Anne Salz: Not us. It's not us. No, we didn't do it.

John Koetsier: Thank you so much, Julia. Thank you so much, Fatima. That was super interesting.

Julia Mallaby: Thank you so much. It was really great to be there.

Fatima Zaidi: Yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: And thanks for sharing those stories. Now you've got...I think John is going to take a look at it and I'm going to get the same.

Julia Mallaby: I hope so.

Peggy Anne Salz: I'm based in Europe. Some pretty cool places around here. Hang out with my tribes. You sold me on it. Thanks so much.

Julia Mallaby: Great. Good to hear. Bye-bye. Thank you.

Apr 20, 2022

How To Scale Your App for Hyper-growth

Scaling to 220 million users is a pretty massive achievement. Helping over 30 million women get pregnant: also massive. And driving growth via content and curation is a pretty unique way to do it.

In this Mobile Heroes Uncensored, hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat with Aurelie Genet, who is VP of Product and Engagement Marketing at Flo, the app that’s all about periods, ovulation, and pregnancy on the surface … but even more about wellness, health, and being your best self.

Genet shares the gold on how product, user acquisition, and retention need to align and collaborate to win, how customer experience determines success, and how Flo uses content as both a competitive differentiator and community creator.

In addition, we chat metrics (always fun), her biggest accomplishment, and Genet’s top three tips for mobile marketers in the health & wellness space.

31 min

Aurélie Genet: What makes a user stick? What is that one action or this combination of action that will get people to really understand the value and keep coming back in an organic way? Because if we understand that, then you can have some marketing campaigns that helps in building these habits, but we need to be super clear on that habit needs to be.

John Koetsier: How do you build a team that can scale for hyper growth? Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." Today, we're chatting with the VP of a product for an app with 220 million global users, has helped over 30 million women get pregnant, which of course is an entirely different kind of growth. In terms of apps, growth means acquisition. Sure, it also means retention and that means you need a great product. My name is John Koetsier. Co-hosting, of course, is Peggy Anne Salz. Peggy, who's going to teach us how to put all these puzzle pieces together?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, as you said it, we have a VP of Product. We actually have Aurélie Genet. She's VP of Product, Engagement Marketing. I love that all together in one place at Flo. And Flo is the app as you pointed out. It supports women at each stage of their reproductive cycle. Today, she leads the cross-discipline engagement marketing tribe, that's also very cool, at Flo Health, take it seriously. It is not a group or a division, it's a tribe. And before that, she held marketing and CRM positions at Skyscanner and Trainline. She started her career in user acquisition roles, moved into retention-focused roles before diving into the world of product marketing. And that's the triangle and that's the challenge that we want to talk about today. But of course, I also take a look at what her colleagues have to say about her. And if you look at it, John, I think we've struck gold because here's how they describe her. "Adaptable and capable of working with multiple stakeholders, but commercial and technical, always bringing a positive vibe."

John Koetsier: Nice.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, we're going to have a positive vibe on our show. And she's also, "not to be messed with."

John Koetsier: Uh-oh.

Peggy Anne Salz: So no way. So, we are strapping ourselves in for an edgy lesson in building teams that work. Welcome, Aurélie.

Aurélie Genet: Hi, thank you. That's quite an intro. Now, I don't really know how to follow up with all these.

John Koetsier: That's awesome. Welcome and thank you for being with us. Before we dive into everything that you're going to talk about, this triangle, the acquisition, the retention, the product, all that stuff, 220 million global users. That's super impressive. There's very few apps that get there. How'd you get there?

Aurélie Genet: That's a very good question. So, Flo really is on the mission to help women globally to live better with their health. As we know, female health is an area that has been underfunded. And so we've really tried to build something that's easy to engage with that women could connect with and really support them throughout their entire life. And the company's been going for a few years, tremendous growth due to product moving very fast, improving very fast and trying to keep up with the demand of our users. So, a lot of work goes into that, basically.

John Koetsier: Nice.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that, that it's leading with product. A great experience. I've taken a look at it, but you also deal with that triangle, that growth triangle. How do you get those three on the same page fitting together the product, the acquisition, the retention?

Aurélie Genet: That's a challenge that I think we work at every day. I think it has to start, one, once I've discovered throughout my entire career was the company will be successful if the product has product-market fit and users love the product. And yes, marketing helps with the discovery and helps with the engagement, but you need to have that product-market fit of having something that people really want to engage with. And so, that's really one of the thing that we help at Flo. I've joined Flo just about a year ago and building that engagement marketing tribe, like you mentioned, was about having product marketing coming in and supporting with these questions of product-market fit. And then also having lifecycle marketing and building up the right communication so we can help users get deeper, deeper engagement with the product and helping them throughout their health journey.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, you bring them together, you build a tribe, share some lessons, some learnings on that path of bringing together what's fairly disparate parts. It's not like they have a lot... Well, they do have a lot in common, but they have a lot of different ways of approaching at the same goal.

Aurélie Genet: Yeah. Definitely. And I think, like you mentioned, my career progression really started in agency side and it was all about drive traffic, drive traffic, drive downloads. And then you work towards that and you generate all of these downloads were great, but who are the people behind these downloads? Are they actually engaging with the app? What's their lifetime value like? And then moving into companies like Trainline, I was in the middle of, well, you're generating all these downloads, but we're not seeing the same conversions that we do on the web. Why is that? And so starting to dive into engagement and what users are doing inside the application. And then that's something that at Skyscanner I could see developed even further. And so for me, the eye-opener was it's not marketing do one thing and then product do another thing. That just doesn't work like that. It needs to be we all work for the same consumer, the same users. And so we need to have metrics that are aligned, we need to make sure we talk to our users frequently and that we build experiences that actually make sense for them so we can maximize the conversion in the long run and not just strike for the short-term goals. So, yeah. That's cross-discipline collaboration for me was the very big aha moment in my career.

Peggy Anne Salz: That is the goal. It's about cross-discipline collaboration, talking to a lot of marketers who aren't as far along on the path as you are and there's things like they, well, I wouldn't say fight, they just sort of struggle to get there.

John Koetsier: I would say fight. I've seen that.

Aurélie Genet: Yeah. I would say fight too. I've been there.

Peggy Anne Salz: Let's just say I was trying to be tactful about this, but it's like, "Hey, I need this data and I need it customized in this way." And it's like, "No, you're not going to get it. And I own the customer experience and you're not going to do this." There is a lot of…a little tension going on. Any nightmares to share from what you have had to...

Aurélie Genet: Oh, God. Yeah. So many. So many. I was in companies and I don't want to name the names where marketing, I was asked, generate downloads, generate traffic. You have to hit X million or X thousands of people. And then Product was like, "Well, but we have to work on the conversion rate. So, you can't just drive an influx of traffic because that's just going to throw my conversion rate out of the window and that's not right." And so you would have this fight. And so sometimes you can find the common ground with people and you can work on projects to prove that the concept work of, let's say, let's take one segment, let's do very targeted advertising, let's do a dedicated landing page, let's see what the engagement rate is throughout and the results. And sometimes you just can't because people are not willing to see past their scope and see how other companies or other discipline rather can deal with it. So, yeah. It can be quite a fight.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, John, it says she's not to be messed with, does that tell you how she settles these fights?

John Koetsier: I don't know. Maybe those elbows are pretty sharp. We'll have to find out, but...

Aurélie Genet: When I was at Skyscanner, actually, I felt like I was asking very hard question and I felt like my engineering team that I was working with were not enjoying me because I would always be the one like, "But how does that feel for the user? Imagine you're the user, does that make sense to you? Is that good enough?" And I felt like I was potentially nagging, but they actually loved that because they were ambitious people. They wanted to do great work. And so they liked to be kept on their toes or they liked to be challenged in the right way. And then at the end, I could actually deliver an amazing product launch campaign and they could see their product in the wild being loved by users. And so it was a bit of, if you give me what I need, then I can do justice to your work and actually make it shine into the world. So, yeah. That's the charming of people and the way you collaborate.

John Koetsier: I love it. But you need some pretty mature people on the other side to make that work.

Aurélie Genet: Yeah. Definitely.

John Koetsier: So, I'm glad that you had that there and obviously have it where you have it right now. I want to talk about the customer experience, you've been talking in and around that. That's the focus, right? That's where somebody spends their time. That's what determines, hey, I like this, I don't like this. I feel good about this, I don't feel good about this. Talk about your app and the customer experience inside of it.

Aurélie Genet: Yeah. So, if you think of Flo... So, Flo started off as a period tracker. That was the first job to be done with the app and we've since then evolved throughout the year into an essential health partner. So, still anchoring around the menstrual cycle because that's something our users have and then men don't have, but it's so much more than just knowing when your period is coming. Actually, your cycle influence your hormones, it will influence how you feel, how your body feel, but how your mind feel the energy, etc. And we're not really taught any of that at school, or it's not necessarily something that you talk about within your family or with friends. Sometimes you're quite alone actually with these feelings, and so, unless there is something dramatically wrong, you might not know what is normal or not normal.
And so I think a big thing that we want to do is helping our users connect with their body and build that confidence and understanding of what is going on. And so then they can decide to actually change some things in their routine and actually, if I have low energy on these days, that's totally normal. I shouldn't beat myself up, but I should actually just be kinder to myself and look after myself, or it can be that some of the length of cycle doesn't look quite right. And so our users should advocate to get further tests with their doctors. And so it's about giving them that confidence to go and ask for better care for themselves. And so that for me is the mission that really drove me to the business is building engagement with the app, but actually to do some good in the world and help a population that is quite overlooked within the health environment.

John Koetsier: You know what I had to think of as you're speaking about that, Aurélie? Peggy and I interviewed, it's gotta be a couple of years ago now, a former product manager for Google's iOS app and he had launched a new subscription service and he said, you needed to know your customers' needs better than they know them themselves. You have to understand their pain and their challenges better than they do themselves. And that's what came through a little bit as you were talking.

Aurélie Genet: Totally. And I think generally, when we think about cycle, we mainly think about period and that can be that time... The phrase is even like, "Oh, that time of the month" is something that you have to deal with, but actually if you learn to understand how it works, you can make it work for you and you can prioritize certain work to be done on days where you know you're going to have the right focus and the right energies. And on the days that you're going to feel a bit low energy, then you can just look after yourself. And I think until you spend the time to check in with yourselves and learn your patterns, you're not really going to get there. So, that's really one of the thing we really try to push for at Flo and really help our users to learn what feels right for them, learn what their patterns are because we're all different. We will all feel different things, but it's about learning to listen to our bodies and then I think reconnect with them a little bit more.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that because we connect with our bodies, we get to understand ourselves, a community, something is building there, a deeper understanding and you're enabling that or even encouraging that with content and curation. That plays a big part in your app and in the appeal of it as well because it's a subscription-based app. And so we get some exclusive content and some other content. Tell me a little bit about content overall and why that's so important to your app.

Aurélie Genet: Yeah. I think it comes back to what I was talking about. So, learning to detect the signals that your body is giving you is one thing, but then understanding, is that signal normal? Is it not normal? Is it something I should worry about? Or is it okay? And so it was important for us to build that educational or supportive content on the size to just give some more context to our users and make sure that they were getting the support that they need, or if actually, it's all fine, you can just keep going with your day and you will be fine, or actually this is something then we think seeing a doctor would be quite useful.

So, it's really going back to understanding our users and how do we want users to feel when they engage with the app and crafting these little moments where you are logging because you feel something and it's about giving you that reassurance and build a bit more of an emotional connection with the product. And we also have some long-form content because we have some of our users who are looking to conceive, for example. And so they will just read everything they can. I've had friends and my sister that went through that and actually reading half of the internet and not being sure, is that okay? Is that not okay? Can I trust this piece of content? And it was really important for us to work with doctors, to work with people that could create something that was easy to digest, not too medical, but also that had that credibility and that people could really trust. And so, we are on a journey with our users if you think of... We are serving people going from teenage years and the first periods and the first sexual experiences all the way through to more mature users. And in the middle, we might have some users trying to conceive, some that are pregnant, etc. And so, we need to have that emotional connection with medical credibility in order to be useful throughout their entire life cycle.

Peggy Anne Salz: Content is what's going to enhance this experience. It's educational, it's helpful. It feels personal, it feels customized. As you said, the whole life cycle, the whole range of stages in a woman's life. What other types of apps could benefit from that?

Aurélie Genet: I think a lot of the apps that ask you to track things, sometimes they're asking you to track because there is that gamification element, but I sometimes just miss a bit of the context. It's like, "Well, I'm tracking this, but so what?" What can I do about this, or what's the journey? And I think that's where you want to build that progression. That's where for me, content is very key. So, I don't necessarily have a specific app in mind that would benefit from this, but I think anything asking you to progress or taking you on the journey to help because if you think of building confidence, I think that's a very hard concept. How do you know if somebody's getting more confident? If you are going into school or something, you can take tests. And so then you know that you know your things, but does that make you necessarily more confident? I think that's a difficult feeling to grasp. And so I think having the right content to help users through that is helpful.

John Koetsier: An app that comes to mind actually that could benefit from that is Zero. I use that occasionally. It's a fasting app and it's just all about tracking and it tells you how many people are fasting at any given time or something like that, but it doesn't have any of that content. And as I'm hearing you talk, I'm thinking, "You know what? That might actually be interesting." Because almost my only engagement with this app is time to fast.

Aurélie Genet: Exactly. But then if you think about this when you go through fasting, you might have headaches because you didn't drink enough water or you might feel a little bit low of energy and things like that. And maybe giving you some reassurance on this is totally normal or explaining why this is happening, I think just strengthen your commitment, I guess to the whole journey. Yeah.

John Koetsier: I agree

Peggy Anne Salz: So many app marketers are talking about content. We met Aurélie at an event where it was, "Oh, even the FinTech apps, oh, I've got content." What can you actually be reading or learning about so much that it fills an entire app session? So, everyone's onto it, everybody wants to curate it. Give me some lessons from your perspective, staying fresh, staying relevant, staying personal. How do you do it?

Aurélie Genet: So, that's not within my team. We have a team at Flo that actually looks at content and we have that team specialized by user segments. So, we really... These teams are the heroes of these specific segments, like what is the jobs to be done? What is their lifestyle? What do they care about? What is the biggest pain point, etc.? And so, I think the key here is to keep in touch with the users. For me, the first company that I was at we had regular catch up with our users. We would run a lot of user research and interviews, and you could just dial in and listen about how people talk about the product, what is their pain point? What do they not like? What do they like? And that helps you stay up to date with their expectations and, therefore, deliver something that makes sense to them. And I think that's the key bit. I was at companies as well and I don't want to name names because I feel like it's not necessary.

John Koetsier: It is "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." So, uncensored.

Aurélie Genet: But I feel like content sometimes can be just published because it's an SEO exercise, but then that piece of content is left there and it's no longer relevant, it's not kept up-to-date and it will start to be more of a negative thing for your brand than a positive thing. So, it is a big challenge and I think we're trying to look at it. Most of our content is sitting within the app and that's the content that will be personalized through the day of your cycle, the goal that you have as a user and how you are interacting with the app. And we also have some content that live on our websites that allows us to help potential users when they are Googling for specific questions. But yeah, you're right, that it is a challenge to keep that up-to-date and fresh and removing the content that's no longer relevant, I think is also a big part of that work.

John Koetsier: What I do like about it is it's an opportunity to give something to your user, to your customer. It's not something they have to do. They don't have to enter something, they don't have to decide something, they don't have to make a purchase decision, it's just, "Hey, here's an experience we're sharing it." And I can consume that, I can enjoy that, and I think that's great in time. Frankly, when we're looking for our phones to deliver those five-minute entertainment episodes, right? Well, I'm waiting for this or I'm in line for that or whatever the case might be. Let's get back to teamwork. One way to drive teamwork is to get the whole team, whether it's product, acquisition, or retention to focus on the same metrics. What are the metrics that you focus on across the teams?

Aurélie Genet: I was actually going through that earlier this week of building a funnel of metrics that makes sense for our users to go through. I think historically what I've seen was, like I mentioned earlier, marketing, you have to drive traffic, you have to drive revenue, and product, you have to optimize that conversion rate. And I feel like actually if we can... I'm a big fan of the Reforge framework and having these aha moment, building a habit, what does that look like? And then when people fall out of that habit, what does that look like as well? And so, for us, the past conversation that I've been having at Flo, we're around what makes a user stick? What is that one action or this combination of action that will get people to really understand the value and keep coming back in an organic way? Because if we understand that, then you can have some marketing campaigns that helps in building these habits, but we need to be super clear on that habit needs to be. And so, what we tend to do is to focus our users on logging symptoms, for example. That's a key one for us because if you start to listen to your body and you record this, it becomes almost like journaling of how did I feel today? Was my energy good? Was it not good? Did I feel cramps? Did I feel headaches? And things like that.

And so that will not take very long like you were talking about micro-moments earlier. That doesn't take very long and that's something you can reproduce every day. So, then the big questions become, how do we build that habit? Could we try gamification? Could we try education with content that explains how it will unlock? Do we do a more of a tutorial where we show users, hey, when you log specific symptoms, we have dedicated health assistant or dedicated stories that pops up into the app that you can dive into how you feel. So, you can then find different solutions to address that problem. And so, for me, what has been key was anchoring the problem statements around key actions that we need people to get...people, sorry, users to do and then you align the product team with engineers and a product marketing person and a lifecycle marketing person to work together to put the plan and deliver these initiatives across all the disciplines.

John Koetsier: Thank you for saying people. I always cringe and I do it myself all the time. I say users and they're people and they're defined by more than their relationship to our apps. And so, I really like that.

Aurélie Genet: Cute.

Peggy Anne Salz: I have to say what is impressing me is how everyone has a stake in this and how you are keeping those teams focused. I'd like to hear a little bit more about your personal life, your personal accomplishment or challenge. What stands out for you as a marketer as the thing you're the proudest of, or that you had the hardest time achieving?

Aurélie Genet: That's probably where you got some of this feedback from probably some of my old colleagues from Skyscanner because I really loved working at that company, really great culture. And so, it was the first time that I was flying out to Budapest and actually meeting a team of product engineers and designer, and I was the first product marketing person they were getting for their piece of work. And so at the very beginning, they were like, "Well, what are you responsible for marketing? Don’t you just do the cool banners outside and what are you doing here with us?" Kind of thing. And so it was not necessarily easy, but they were open to the conversation. And so, we worked together and I proved them value. I would do user research, come back and telling them, "Okay. How about we think about this and how we think about that," and helping shape what the product could look like. And I think for me, the biggest achievement was once we launched a product, I had engineers being like, "I love working with marketing and how can we make sure we keep you for the further projects that we have?" And so for me, that was such a... I felt very emotional, because I was like, "Okay. Right. I won them over." That's pretty cool because usually, engineers just want to do their thing. They don't necessarily want to engage or they think marketing is not necessarily very useful and all of that. And I know...

John Koetsier: That's a very polite way of putting it.

Aurélie Genet: That's very natural. Yeah, yeah. No. I know that, but yeah. And that just showed that I helped them show a little bit more of my world and then they showed me more of their world and "No, Aurélie, we can't do these things because we have technical limitation." "Right. Okay. So, what's the middle ground here? What it is that we can do because you understand what I need. I understand we have limitation, let's work together so it makes sense to our users." And yeah, that's when for me it clicked in my head, I was like, "All right. Okay. So, we can all work together. It's just about understanding what makes sense to the users." So, that come back to the product-market fit and making sure we do this right by the user. But it's not always easy. So, I appreciate that.

John Koetsier: Well, this is a banner moment on "Mobile Heroes Uncensored" because I have never heard and Peggy, let me know. I bet you have never heard a product person, a technology person say, “I love working with marketing.” I have never heard those words. Not once. And Peggy is shaking her head. She hasn't either. So, there's something special that you've done here, Aurélie. That's amazing, that's impressive, that's incredible. And you know what, we want to capture a little bit more that is amazing and incredible, and we'll end here. What are your top three tips for mobile marketers in the health and wellness space heading into? We're well into it now, but still heading into 2022.

Aurélie Genet: Oh, wow. I think I'm going to sound like a broken record, but for me, it's especially when you're health and wellbeing or fitness, going back to the user, I think one of the big mistake we can make is because we leave and breathe our product day in, day out because we work on it all the time. It makes sense to us and we think it's the right thing because this is what we want to see. But actually, going back and talking to our users, they might think that actually this is fine or this is not at all what they're expecting and they have another app for that already. So, they don't really expect to be doing this within your app. And so going back to the user all the time, making sure you speak to your user on a regular basis, whether it's focus groups or moderated testing, unmoderated testing, I think is quite key.

But even sometimes talking to your friends. I remember when I used to work at Trainline, people were like, "My God, I use that app all the time." I was like, "Great. Tell me what's good about it, what's not good about it." And just collect feedback. Just sense check that you're still on the right track, I think for me is key. And I think crafting these micro-moments that we mentioned earlier as well and making sure that you... Obviously, as an app, you know what the impact is going to be. Especially in health and fitness, I feel like you have your goal. For us, it's to build that confidence and being your health partner. So, be there on the journey with you. On some other, it's like meditation and making sure you have a good night sleep or making sure that you lose weight if it's about fitness or fasting.

But then I feel like health and fitness, January, new year, new me kind of things. I come in, I have loads of good intention. But how is that going to look in February, March, April? And so, it's having that in mind as well and how you don't necessarily put too much pressure on your users, "You haven’t logged today." Or, "You haven't fasted." Or, you haven't done this and you actually allow users to come in and out of it when they feel like it and be supportive. I think we live in a very difficult world. We've had two years of COVID, now we have obviously some crises and war things going on. And I think as health and fitness app, it's a lot about wellbeing and be there with our users and helping them not necessarily be harder on themselves, but if anything, kinder and just trying to go through things as well as possible. And so again, that comes back to empathy, which I think comes back to listening to your users. And I think that's on me too, so I don't know. That's okay, maybe?

John Koetsier: That's totally fine. That was wonderful. It was a great too, it's a wonderful too. And it's actually really interesting because you are really engaged in retention, but you're also saying, hey, it's okay to step away for a moment. It's okay to not fast every day or whatever it's doing. Aurélie, want to thank you for this time. It's been wonderful. It's Friday night, it's late. You're in London, so it's like 8:00 p.m. or something. I don't know, 7:00 p.m. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show.

Aurélie Genet: No. Thank you for having me. It was great chatting with you too.

Peggy Anne Salz: And thanks also for a great lesson we'll all take with us, all app marketers. They can lay off being so needy. They can just sit back, be supportive, let us do things in the app on our own terms. Wouldn't that be cool, John?

John Koetsier: Love it. And thank you to all listeners. We really do appreciate you. Hope you're enjoying it. Let us know on social if you are.

Peggy Anne Salz: And let us know if you want to come and we'll have you on the show. If you're a mobile hero or you know someone who is, then fill out the interest form over at

John Koetsier: Also, Liftoff has a slack for mobile heroes and people in the mobile ecosystem. There's a link on the screen and if you're listening to the podcast, it's that It's pretty cool. There's smart people there and you know what? They probably need you too.

Peggy Anne Salz: And you have probably been completely blown away by all the insights on this show and you want your transcript, and you can have it because the transcripts are over at Liftoff's website. Go to, click on Heroes and then click on podcast.

John Koetsier: I actually personally love transcripts because I read way faster than people talk. So, that's a great way to get insights really, really quickly. Until next time, this is John Koetsier. Thank you so much for joining.

Peggy Anne Salz: And this is Peggy Anne Salz signing off from "Mobile Heroes Uncensored."

Apr 13, 2022

Better AdMon Than Pre-IDFA? Here's How

It sounds insane but one of the top ad monetization specialists in the world is confident that ad monetization is not dead … and that a blast-from-the-past ad unit with super-high CPIs is one of the ways to make it happen.

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored we chat with Kelly Kang, currently Senior Director of Ad Monetization at Pixel United (think Product Madness, Big Fish, and Plarium) and has held roles at both Zynga and Glu. She tells co-hosts Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier how ad monetization is far from dead and how monetization pros can still get a great return from app users … even without ad identifiers like IDFA or GAID.

Plus, Kang gives us her top tips in monetization and the one thing she’d change about her career if she could go back in time.

26 min

Kelly Kang: What I've learned is we have to work together with the product team, with the game team to figure out which placement is actually more interesting to the users or which placement makes sense.

John Koetsier: Could post-IDFA advertising be better than the good old days of advertising identifiers? Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Origin Stories" where we go one-on-one in depth with mobile marketing experts. My name is John Koetsier, my co-host is Peggy Anne Salz, of course. And today we're talking about ad mon, ad monetization. It's taken a few hits lately. Obviously, Apple's ATT is here, Google's Privacy Sandbox for Android is coming. And ad identifiers like IDFA and Google ad ID are going away. But just maybe that change has opened up new opportunities. Peggy, who are we chatting with today?

Peggy Anne Salz: Indeed, John. We have someone who's turning a negative into a positive over and over again, because she is spending a lot of time on ad monetization, accelerating ad monetization growth. Kelly Kang is senior director at Pixel United where she oversees advertising strategies and ad monetization. She spent a number of years at Pixel United helping accelerate ad mon growth and its advertising ecosystem. But if we step back for a moment, John, you might not have heard of Pixel United but you have heard of its three major businesses: they have Product Madness, Plarium, Big Fish. Before that, Kelly held ad mon leadership positions at Zynga and Glu.

And as always, I look into our guests and I found pure gold here. Her colleagues credit Kelly with exponential growth wherever she goes. As one put it, she personally added millions of dollars of incremental revenue, that's a feat in itself, at Big Fish through constant optimization of existing ads and continual encouragement of the game teams to try new formats and new techniques. So we're going to have some new views. Welcome, Kelly, to the show.

John Koetsier: I'm super pumped to have you. I mean, we got to talk about this, personally added millions of dollars. How on earth did that happen?

Kelly Kang: I mean, appreciate the callout, but it was done by partnership and teamwork, I couldn't have done it without all the teamwork, and years of educating the game teams and the company itself the value of ad monetization.

John Koetsier: Good answer. Good answer. It is always a team. Absolutely. I'm sure you had a lot to do with it. But I also got to hit this Pixel United because Peggy was talking about, "Hey, we're going to talk to Kelly from Pixel United." I was going like, "What the heck is Pixel United?" And then she said Product Madness and Big Fish and all those things. So tell us about that journey.

Kelly Kang: Yeah, I mean, as you guys might not have heard, Pixel United is somewhat of new-ish. We're only few months in, but we've been around. We just rebranded ourself to Pixel United. I don't know if you guys heard of it, we used to be call ourself Aristocrat Digital, so we are sort of the Aristocrat company. Out of the Aristocrat, everything that's digital related, including Big Fish, you know, Plarium, Product Madness, we have now our own digital entity underneath Pixel United. So, no, we are not new. We have been around, just rebranded ourself.

Peggy Anne Salz: So we know the story of Pixel United, let's talk about you now. This is origin stories, you are our focus. How did you get started?

Kelly Kang: When I found out back in my days when I first started this career, there is a career related to anything digital related, PC, back then there were just a little bit of mobile, a lot of them were PC desktop, and it was mind-blowing. I was like, "I can actually have a career just sitting in front of a computer." So I started looking into it, you know, because I don't have to study every single day. I thought computers were a new thing back in the day. So I started looking into it and landed on a QA job at first. And I self-taught myself all the way to where I am currently. So it was a curiosity that turned into a career.

Peggy Anne Salz: I'm really impressed by that because I'm just thinking there were no YouTube videos you could be watching to learn from, you know. You had to learn it yourself. What helped you with that learning curve, Kelly?

Kelly Kang: I think that's a good question. I read every ad mon related article back in the days. But granted, it was over 10 years ago, so there were not that many articles. So it sounds like a lot when I say I read every article, but I could rarely find any articles back in the days. And it was shadowing and getting to know how everything's getting done on mobile. It was downloading a lot of the apps on my phone, game, non-game, just anything that's on App Store top 100, top 50, and just figuring out how they're doing advertising, like, how are they making money from me when I'm not buying it? And again, it was triggered by curiosity. So I did, you know, play a lot of the apps or, you know, downloaded a lot of the non-relevant apps as well, anything that was on top 100 or 50. So it was just a lot of phone time.

John Koetsier: Wow, I can only imagine. It's so many apps on your phone. I mean, I'm trying to get rid of some of the apps on my phone.

Peggy Anne Salz: I love the journey like this, John, you know, it's so inspiring. You do it yourself, you teach yourself. Granted, there weren't that many articles, but the curiosity is there, the passion is there. I have to ask, what would you tell your younger self? Or what do you wish you'd known then that you do now? So have a little conversation, Kelly-to-Kelly talk here.

Kelly Kang: I mean, I would say wait a few more years for YouTube to come out so I can save a few years. But, you know, all kidding aside, I think it's more of a, don't focus 100% on just advertising and the business side only, because that's what I've been only doing, you know, growing up. I think, kind of look into the other aspects of it. I definitely missed the technical aspects of it. I didn't know that the technical side is related to advertising monetization. So I disregard that 100%. So I had to pay for it for the few years of headaches in the past years. So I will tell myself, like, try to learn, you know, here and there, little bit of everything. Don't just focus 100% on just, you know, advertising only. What ads are they serving? Or who are they serving? I will tell myself, don't disregard the technical aspect of the ad monetization.

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. Well, let's get into what we teased right off the top. It's a big question mark right now, ad effectiveness, post-ad identifiers. I mean, it was kind of an...I never want to say easy, right, but there was an ease to advertising and even maybe monetization. In the past, you had an IDFA. There you go, you know a little bit about that person, you know a little bit of where they've been, where they've come from, all that stuff. Now, there's less of that, a lot less of that. But you've said that that opens up new opportunities. What are they?

Kelly Kang: I mean, it's going back in time, which is funny, like, given the mobile industry is such a fast-paced industry. When I say let's kind of step back and go back in time, people kind of look at me funny. But it's kind of going back in time with this ID-less, there's only about two things that we can do. Obviously, where the video stays as is, if you guys can target it, target your way. If not, there's two ways to look at it, interstitial and offerwall. But because I myself have a lot of apps on my phone, I personally don't really like intrusive ads such as Interstitial. So we are kind of going back in time. So offerwall, I know offerwall was a big thing 10, 7, 8 years ago, and now not that many companies or, you know, apps have that. But because it doesn't require ID, I think it is a great way to take a step back and look into the offerwall.

John Koetsier: Is that because in offerwall there could be multiple offers, perhaps from different apps, and you get a sense of self-selection, which one are you interested in? So I don't need to know you to target the one right interstitial to you or the one right rewarded video to you, you get to kind of pick that real time. Is that where you're getting at?

Kelly Kang: Yeah, exactly. You know, offerwall is a wall of so many offers, it's up to, you know, 20 to 100. You scroll down, there you have it. So it's just a matter of whatever you want, you get to click on it. Advertisers don't have to know who you are to show you the wall of offers or the apps. So whatever you want to choose, kind of go for it.

John Koetsier: Nice. Choose your own adventure. I love it. Awesome. That makes a lot of sense. What are some tips about optimising an offerwall? How do you make it most effective?

Kelly Kang: I mean, with the whole positive, you know, offerwall experience in mind, I can narrow it down to few things. One is a special promotion, meaning offerwall can be very stable, you know, not too visible all the time. It's only about 3% to 5% of the entire user that's actually seeing it, which is a huge difference. When you look at interstitial rewarded video, we're talking 60% to 70% of an engagement rate. But for offerwall, it's only down to about 3% to 5%. But because CPI is so high, you know, advertisers are paying so much, even with that 3% to 5% we can still make a lot of money just about the same as rewarded video.

So few of the tips were finding the right entry point. So you don't want to kind of hide all this offerwall all the way into the bank to the end of the corner. I will say do a lot of tests and find the optimal spot for, you know, offerwall. When we normally think about offerwall, the people, first thing in their mind is let's put them in a bank and call it a day. That's kind of number one, and what's the in the industry. But I will say that's the old, old mentality. So let's kind of revive this into a whole new thing. You know, just treat them like rewarded video, like, where is the optimal spot there where people can actually see it? It's not intrusive if they get to still click in, you know, opt in. So for me, it's just more about finding the optimal spot for them. So choosing the right placement is number one.

And the currency sale, kind of going back to the whole special promotion, currency sale is more like you kind of run a monthly, or every time there's a holiday, we give them double the amount of a certain period of time, double amount of the currency reward that we're, you know, normally giving it out so users are engaging more. So overall is the retention positive, net positive. So we can attempt to run on a monthly basis, we give out double the currency, you know, for two, three days. So it's a really good experience for...I guess, win-win for advertiser and users, both.

I think lastly it's all about the segmentation. Because it's ID-less, we can't really target them, you know, we can't really make it personalised for everyone or to their likings. So let's segment them where we can. So, obviously, start from the payer, non-payer, what country they're in, meaning if they're not clicking, you know, IAP button at all, let's show them more. Let's, you know, give them more offers or give more currency so that it's interesting for them to actually do more offers. And maybe the colours, are they clicking on their normal UI because we don't have to know who they are? Are they normally clicking this colour theme better or that theme better? Then let's make the button that colour so it's more interesting to them. So it's more like let's segment and personalise what we can without having the ID.

John Koetsier: Absolutely. Love it.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's very smart.

John Koetsier: Peggy is going to get into a lot of questions about ad partners, which is really, really critical, in just a moment. But I have to ask a question because I have an expert right in front of me right now. Do you as an ad monetization expert get involved in product? Do you talk to the product team? Do you talk to them? I'm going to give you an example, there's a game I play, it's not one of yours, and I often don't buy stuff in there because I don't understand how it's going to help me in the game. Because there are so many different mechanics going on in the game. And so I would probably buy more if I knew what that gem was for or if I knew what that thing was for. Do you get yourself involved in product?

Kelly Kang: Yes, we do. I think that's one of the newest in last few years that I've learned is, in the first years of my career, I only focused only advertising. Once the game team kind of gives me the placement, then I only focus on that. But what I've learned is we have to work together with the product team, with the game team to figure out which placement is actually more interesting to the users, or which placement makes sense. So it's more like working internally is about 50% to 60% it should be your job normally, but which I recently found only a few years ago. So that is a problem, but getting better.

Because of that now, when you're actually building a game or any kind of new gaming beta, we actually start working with the dev team, with the game team, the product team to start from there. Hey, I know your game mechanics is this, but can we try this out for the advertising or here and there, so that we can add more KPI metrics to it? And what if the users who never click on this, you know, IAP button, can you show...because I know you have a lot of those people that didn't click the bank tab or whatnot, or they clicked it but they exited out, in that case, can we show our advertising because I think we can add few dollars benefits to that as well? So yeah, we do work part to part with our game teams and our product team.

John Koetsier: Nice.

Peggy Anne Salz: So smart here, you know, not just the team effort to make product and marketing move together and work in sync, but also I'm still thinking about personalising and segmenting the offerwall. I think that's probably an untapped opportunity and there's going to be a lot of thinking around how to approach that and how to learn from that. I mean, it's exciting. I hadn't thought of that. But between the 20 to 100 things you can be showing me in the offerwall, you know, if you can reduce that universe of possibilities down to the ones I'm really going to click on and go for and install, that's a lot of money. For one thing, that's very lucrative. That's exciting. Could you just tell me a little bit more about how you're segmenting that? Because it's one thing to say, "Well, we segment the offerwall," but I haven't heard of that.

Kelly Kang: We are kind of doing it in a little bit of an AI way, or trying to get there in a AI way. We're so far away. But basically, right now we're doing a manual way where, hey, if users have clicked this and actually finished the offer back in the days, then we will show that at the top of the offer wall rather than on the bottom. So we're kind of, I guess, tracking the clicks, what their last click was, or did they finish it or were they not interested? So we're trying to learn what we can out of not tying down into the user. So anything we can do in that sense, I want to make it into where it's AI. So when a user opens it, we immediately know what the user wants and you know what that user might like better than the others. But right now, we're a bit away from there.

So we're only doing it as a historical way of just connect tracking where we can in that user session, because sometimes a user clicks more than once. In that case, in the offer wall once, they click it, start it, go back and come back, you know, within the same session. In there, we were able to see the session side. So we were trying to track it. If the user's been playing a game for a long time, that means they already have a lot of currency, so they might be only looking into just smaller offers. So we kind of look at their offerwall...I mean, the currency balance as well. If this user is level this and above, let's show this type of offer on the top and this one on the bottom. So we are trying to kind of get to know the user within the game, at least only the game, now that we can track without this ID.

We're trying our best to just kind of in every aspect of it, you know, is this user tied where...? Does this user watch rewarded video? If they do, then they might not be so into doing offerwall. In that case, let's just...because this user is so used to rewarded video, let's show them only short offers because they're so used to doing it for only 30 seconds. But if they never actually don't watch rewarded video, that user might be more open because they don't know what that advertising is supposed to be 30 seconds or longer. So we tend to give them longer offers on the top as well. So try to segment in detail as much as we can.

Peggy Anne Salz: I love that. So resourceful, John. I mean, you know, they've just sort these few scraps of information and really trying to figure out what to do with them. That is very smart. So we talked about how you work together with the team, but you also are very focused on working with ad partners. And not just any ad partners, you have come up with a checklist of, like, perfect partner. What do you track and what do you look at?

Kelly Kang: Yeah, I mean, where do I start? Like, it's my favourite topic. Working with the partners is my favourite topic. Because I've been in this industry so long, I don't want to favour somebody over someone just because I work with them for so long or they're my family and friends. So I don't want to, like, favour them. So I came up with the evenly fair, you know, thing which is a checklist. I made a checklist where I'm giving every ad new vendor that we're considering, that partner that we're considering, kind of giving them a point system. I call it a report card checklist. You know, it might sound a lot, but it's basically...

John Koetsier: Do you send it home to their parents?

Kelly Kang: Exactly. To their home. Many different, like, "You didn't make the cut because you missed this part."

John Koetsier: C-minus. No ice-cream tonight.

Kelly Kang: Get back to me when you're back in the A. So, few things, I mean, major things I'm looking at is product itself and a tech support account manager day-to-day. So to kind of break it down, when I look at the product it's more like, you know, can I trust the product? You know, or is it aligned with the industry? Or is this a product as good as it can be? What's the roadmap look like? Is there a roadmap, you know, decent enough where it can know, it can change at a given moment, given the industry? We want to make sure that they're adaptable. So when I look at the product itself it's looking at just where the product is at and what their roadmap looks like. So they kind of get their own system for that, points for that.

And tech support, meaning how easy is it to integrate. Because I partner with engineers internally, I have to kind of sell myself this product internally as well. So for me to do that, how hard or how easy is the integration? What does tech support look like? Can they actually support us while integrating? Or is it more, "Please go to this link and download it from there." Is it one of those? Because if that's the case, I actually have to know the tech side of it, or else I can't sell it to my own team. So that kind of factors in there as well.

And most importantly, is the account manager team a day-to-day point of contact? Are they on par with the industry? Do they, you know, reply within a reasonable time? As you know, there are so many things that could break on a daily basis on ad mon. So we want to make sure that our campaigns, our teams are on it, you know, who can be there for us. Not asking 24/7, but who can be there for us at a given reasonable time? And because I want my team to actually have a know, I don't want to just kind of give them, "Hey, guys, here's a new product, you're going to work with them." I want to make sure that they have a good work-life balance, and that they have a good work experience as well. So I want to make sure this account manager that my team's, you know, dealing with everyday, working with every day are, you know, as good as how my team is. So I'm kind of looking at those... Those are the few major points that I'm kind of looking at.

Peggy Anne Salz: Love it. Just makes it easy to do business with, good support, low stress. Interestingly enough, size also matters to you and in the sense that too big is not always too good, it can even be a deal breaker. Why is that?

Kelly Kang: Yes. So I know that that's a very conflicting statement. Too big is not the best answer, but a lot of people disagree. They're like, "Oh, no, you got to go with the bigger company." But I disagree, given the years of experience. Sometimes when the company is too big, they're going to be behind with the industry trend, just because the adaptability is not there all the time. It takes them time to adapt to a new level of the next thing. Because the bigger you are, the more, I guess, steps you have to go through. The legal work for them takes six months. But in six months, we have a new product. That's no longer relevant.

And the bigger the company is, they are, "Oh, our roadmap is set for the next six months or a year. So we can't change that." I'm like, "Well, you know, but after a year, there's going to be three more new products that you have to catch up with." So we can't do that. So when we look at, like, a company, like, when it's too big, that's more of a red flag in my book. Which is a very, you know, weird thing because I know people like to go for the bigger company. I'm just looking at it based on the industry, does it make sense? Can they change? You know, can they adapt? I think those are the major things and the reason why the bigger the company, maybe not the better it is for our industry, maybe.

John Koetsier: We don't want to go too much longer. You've got work to go back to, and so do we. But we always end by asking for top tips. What are the most important things ad mon pros need to build into their monetization strategies?

Kelly Kang: I will say, think of it from the users' perspective first. When we are looking at ad monetization, we tend to be sometimes too focused on how many ads can we serve more to the user so we can make more money? Which was me. So not that I learned, it's more of a... It's not about can we serve more or how many can we show more ads to, it's more of a what do users want? What do they want to click? So always looking at it from the users' perspective is my biggest strategy kind of thing is, are they going to want to click this? Or are they going to look at it and go, "Oh, no, it's one of those ads." So let's keep that in mind and always look into, yes, you know, we've got to get from the users' perspective. Think of you as them at first and then see, you know, are you going to want to click on that ad? Are you going to want to engage with it? So think of that first as my number one tip or strategy.

John Koetsier: Absolutely. Love it. I'm going to add a second one, and it's yours but I'm going to say it. You've already kind of hinted at it. In fact, you said it out loud. And that is download lots of other apps, your competitors' apps, top apps, and see what they're doing, see how it's working, see how you feel when you get marketed to, and when you see ads, and when you see them where they put them in the flow and you'll learn so much. Your boss will think you're just playing games, but you're actually doing valuable research. Kelly, this has been so much fun. You've been super interesting, super informative. Thank you so much for this time.

Kelly Kang: Thank you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Thanks, Kelly. I have to also say thanks for shining a light on some new strategies, some new ways to get, you know, more bang for the buck literally because there isn't a lot to work with, but what you're doing with the few clicks you can see. Just astounding, more power to you. Thanks for being on our show and sharing.

Kelly Kang: Thank you.

John Koetsier: And thank you to all listeners, we really do appreciate you. Hope you're enjoying it. Let us know on social if you are.

Peggy Anne Salz: And let us know if you want to come and we'll have you on the show. If you're a mobile hero or you know someone who is, then fill out the interest form over at

John Koetsier: Also, Liftoff have a Slack for Mobile Heroes and people in the mobile ecosystem. There's a link on the screen. And if you're listening to the podcast, it's at It's pretty cool. There's smart people there, and you know what, they probably need you too.

Peggy Anne Salz: And you have probably been completely blown away by all the insights on this show and you want your transcript, and you can have it because the transcripts are over at Liftoff's website, go to, click on Heroes, and then click on Podcast.

John Koetsier: I actually personally love transcripts because I read way faster than people talk. So it's a great way to get insights really, really quickly. Until t next time, this is John Koetsier. Thank you so much for joining.

Peggy Anne Salz: And this is Peggy Anne Salz signing off for "Mobile Heroes Uncensored."

Apr 6, 2022

How These Ads Outperform Native Content

How do you get ads that outperform native content? There’s only one way today’s guest has achieved that, and it’s via influencer marketing on social platforms.

“The best thing about TikTok is that you can get massive algorithmic distribution on ads, which I haven’t been able to achieve in the same way on other platforms,” says today’s guest Aidan Quest. “So we’ll have ads that will perform better than an influencer’s content sometimes if the ad is interesting enough.”

Quest leads JetFuel’s creator operations and business development. He spent 30 minutes with John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chatting about what’s new in influencer marketing, what’s changing, and how to make influencer marketing a steady-state growth engine for new mobile app users.

And: why influencer marketing is still the only channel where you can actually get on-platform algorithmic distribution IF your ad is good enough.

The funny thing about good enough? Often it’s the opposite of what you’d expect. Get all the details in this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored.

24 min

Aidan Quest: The more native the ad itself, the better your outcomes are going to be. If you're a TikToker and you jump right into a video saying how great this app is, people are just going to swipe right by. Instead, you want to. . . If you have a fitness app and someone is talking about their weight-loss journey or someone is sharing a funny gym story and then, in the middle of that, they introduce the app, that's a much better way to get consistent scale.

John Koetsier: Can you kickstart mobile app growth sustainably with influencer marketing? And if so, what does it take? Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." My name is John Koetsier. My co-host, of course, is Peggy Anne Salz. And today we're talking about influencer marketing. I don't know if you've been on TikTok recently, maybe in there, three, four hours or Instagram. But it has just absolutely taken off. Even in the last few months, I've seen more. Question is, for app marketing and app growth, is it good for more than a flash in the pan? Is it good for more than boosting your metrics for a moment? Peggy, who are we chatting with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we're going to go to the source today, John. We're talking to Aidan Quest, head of creator sales at JetFuel. Now, JetFuel is an influencer-driven app promotion service. And like the name says, it exists to rocket sales. It gives advertisers instant access to thousands of influencers who then promote their apps on a pay-per-install basis. And Aidan, our guest, well, before joining JetFuel where he focuses on building the creator economy, as he should, he worked in strategy consulting focused on tech and M&A. So he is in his element. And in his free time, you'll find him outside of the element, although I think he's also a bit of an influencer. He'll be talking about that as well, hobbies such as yoga, deejaying, cycling, cooking, playing guitar, all-around talent, and here is with us today. Aidan, great to have you.

Aidan Quest: Thanks for the intro, Peggy.

John Koetsier: Hey, super pumped to have you. I mean, look at that. That's the perfect influencer. Look at that background, perfect lighting. I mean, like, you know, colour is amazing.

Peggy Anne Salz: This is the real deal.

John Koetsier: You would think that, after a couple of years of pandemic and working wherever, people would have their setup, but no, they don't. Aidan, let's talk about influencer marketing. How has it evolved and changed just in the last year? I mentioned it in the intro, I've really seen an acceleration of it, I think in the last six months or so, especially on TikTok, and just more, like, conversational, "I'm bringing a product in. This is super cool. Here's what I do with it." What have you seen over the last year?

Aidan Quest: Yeah, certainly. It's a really dynamic industry. And depending on where you sit in the advertising ecosystem, you might have a slightly different answer to this question. But I think from my perspective in the app world, we've seen the proliferation of TikTok expansion, whether that's the pace of creator scaling, whether that's the breadth and the content that's being shared. Additionally, just the expansion of short-form content as a whole, YouTube rolling out Shorts, Instagram continuing to push Reels, and the way that that kind of influences how we work with advertisers, I think, is a pretty big component to how we've kind of made it work with apps.

John Koetsier: That makes so much sense. I've seen so much buzz around the short-form videos on YouTube and I've seen some people who have gone astronomical with YouTube. And I'm thinking, Peggy, we need to do this, but that's for another day.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yes, yes. It's where you need to be. But I wonder sometimes because, at the other end, you're supposed to be human, you're supposed to bring your whole self to your social media. So the challenge with influencer marketing is around scale really. How can you scale, but still have a great influencer brand connection also with the audience as well?

Aidan Quest: So this is something that's also gotten a lot easier, I think, in the last year or so. There are a lot more tools available right now to help identify and find the right influencer for you. There's a handful of CRMs out there. TikTok talk has also taken a big step forward in actually helping advertisers with this exact problem. They launched their TikTok Creator Marketplace so you can go in and search for similar creators, you can see pricing, you can see the age demographics of various influencers. It's a bit harder to do on other platforms, but there are third-party solutions like Trendpop or Tensor Social that really help you identify a large enough set of influencers that might be a good fit for you. And Peggy, as you mentioned, getting consistent scale is something that's very hard, and we can talk about that a little bit more. But kind of that first step is making sure you have a . . .kind of like any sort of sales process, you want to make sure you have a big enough set of creators that you can reach out to because you're going to assume that a handful of those are ultimately going to fall through.

John Koetsier: So the scale is one thing. Continuity is another thing, right? If you're building an app, then you don't really want the. . .I mean, you like the spikes, but you don't like the cliff afterwards. How do you make influencer marketing last? What's that look like?

Aidan Quest: Yeah. So the consistency around influencer marketing is really about the number of posts you're able to get up in a set amount of time, and there's different levels of control you have innately with each of these pieces. But it's sort of that number of posts, the amount of views that you're expecting to get on those posts, sort of how well that ad is going to convert to clicks or instals, or a downfall of metrics, right? Each of those elements is either more or less difficult to control for. I'd say the one that I think early advertisers struggle the most with is that, like, number of views on an ad component. There's some element of this that is random, and we've seen this in our business. We might have, out of nowhere, an ad that we didn't think was going to do that well just get a ton of algorithmic engagement on TikTok, meaning that, like, the ad itself actually hits the For You Page. And through a lot of, like, testing and practice, you can start to try to define some of that stuff for yourself a little bit more.

I'd say for anyone who hasn't done a lot of influencer marketing in the past, doing a lot of research on creators, figuring out that kind of set of maybe like, 10 to 15 you want to start reaching out to and starting small, doing small tasks, figuring out, you know, "If a creator has 100,000 followers, am I actually going to be able to get, you know, 20,000 views on this ad or 10,000," whatever it might be, and really looking at engagement, running some small scale tests to see, and then sort of like, incrementally scaling up. If you're a large company and you're trying to figure out how can you get more consistency and scale over time, a lot of your attention should be on the type of creative that you're making. The more native the ad itself, the better your outcomes are going to be. If you're a TikToker and you jump right into a video saying how great this app is, people are just going to swipe right by. Instead, you want to. . .If you have a fitness app and someone is talking about their weight loss journey or someone is sharing a funny gym story and then, in the middle of that, they introduce the app, that's a much better way to get a consistent scale. It's really all about being native.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that. Really good tips and it also tells us that there's no workaround to the legwork, you know. Researching the fit with the influencers, that means spending a ton of time out there actually scrolling, looking for everything, finding that fit. But let's think about the typical sort of cold start here, right? Someone's listening, they're saying, "Yes, this is great. Aidan has made me very excited." And we want to understand, you know, the typical app-advertiser experience from the start. What are my first steps?

Aidan Quest: Yeah. Well, first steps would be looking to JetFuel because it will skip you a lot of these kind of manual steps we're about to talk about, to be completely honest.

John Koetsier: This message is brought to you by. . .

Aidan Quest: But yeah, very, very, very initial first steps are understanding what your target audience for your app is, and which I think most app developers know, whether that's, you know, trying to figure out what type of audience is monetising better for you or is more engaged, then looking out for influencers who have at least that kind of like, demographics fit which you can find via a couple of the tools mentioned, or if you're doing this very manually, you can reach out to influencers via DMs and ask for a screenshot of their insights, which will show you how many percent of their followers are in the U.S., how many are of within certain age demos, and gender splits, and things like that. That's really step one is, like, having a conversation with influencers and seeing the ones that would be a good fit. The next one, which I think is people's, probably, next biggest hurdle, is around pricing. This is a very kind of wild west industry. A lot of times influencers would have gotten one big brand deal and they'll just stamp that as the price that they charge, which is oftentimes very out of whack with what performance marketers would be expecting in terms of like, return on that ad spend.

One good way to kind of think about this is to really look at impressions. Don't get distracted by the big follower counts. You might have a 2 million follower TikToker who's charging you $3,000 for a post, but if you actually look at their videos, they're only getting between like, you know, 10,000 views or something like that. Where the sweet spot is is you want to flip that ratio. You want to find smaller influencers who are newer, who have much larger engagements, who might not have had the same type of, you know, they might not have been inundated with brand deals six months ago and their engagement was a lot better.

John Koetsier: Love it, love it.

Peggy Anne Salz: A little bit like picking stocks, isn't it?

Aidan Quest: It is, it is. And I've honestly really loved that part about working in this industry. It's fun. It's dynamic, but there definitely is a lot of strategy here. Yeah. But a lot of times what happens with the advertisers who aren't familiar with influencers, they'll jump in, they'll get quoted a big price. They won't really know if it's worth it or not. They'll give it a test and then their ad will just flop. They'll get, you know, a couple thousand views which will lead to a few instals, and ultimately it won't be good value for them. So it's really about starting small, doing those tests, figuring out what CPMs you should be charging or backing into flat rates based on the CPMs, and things like that.

John Koetsier: You talked about TikTok as well as Reels and YouTube Shorts, and stuff like that. Walk us through TikTok a little bit. That platform has been working on its ad tools and becoming advertiser-friendly. What are you seeing there?

Aidan Quest: Yeah. So the best thing about TikTok is that you can get really massive algorithmic distribution on ads, which I haven't really been able to achieve in the same way on other platforms. So we'll have ads that will perform better than an influencer's content sometimes, if the ad is interesting enough, which is just not really going to happen as much on some of the other platforms. It's just the way that the algorithm works, they're also constantly sort of promoting newer creators to get them growing. It's just where a lot of the growth is right now. Also, their user base is expanding at such a fast rate that a lot of this is kind of aligned with one another.

One of the biggest changes that TikTok has had, which should be very top of mind for anyone who's interested in the space, is they recently started something called Spark Ads, which enables you to programmatically push organic influencer creative. So in this historical example, right, let's say things didn't go well. You made a really good ad. It wasn't very native, but the influencer did a great job with the creative, but it kind of flopped on the platform, it maybe only got a couple thousand views. Now you can get that influencer to send you a code and then, through TikTok's ad portal, you can spend on a CPM, or a CPC, or a CPI kind of running traditional TikTok ads to boost that influencer's creative. It's sort of a really nice win-win for both parties. The influencer loves it because you're actually sending people to their page. They might like the ad, they might click on their profile, they might follow them, and boost their metrics. So they love it and the advertiser loves it because it takes a lot of the guesswork out of influencer marketing instead of it being sort of up to the platform to see how many impressions you get. You are kind of put in the driver's seat there. So that was a pretty big change and helps make advertisers' lives a lot easier.

Peggy Anne Salz: You also worked with TikTok, Aidan. I was wondering if you could recount that because it was one of your first clients as well.

Aidan Quest: Yeah, that's true. I don't want to get the date wrong. I think it was back in 2018 or 2019. TikTok was kind of one of our first major clients. That was back when the app was not as popular in the U.S. and they were trying to kind of expand pretty rapidly. A lot of really fun stories from back then. We came up with a few kind of interesting ad formats that worked particularly well. We've been able to transfer some of those to other apps. But yeah, they were a really important early client for us. And it was always, for us, a very native thing to push because at the time we were working mainly on Snapchat, Instagram, and it was a lot easier for them to sell this new cool up and coming social network versus like, I don't know, another app that might not fit their content style as well.

Peggy Anne Salz: But you also had. . .

John Koetsier: You said a lot of fun stories. We got to hear one of them.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah. I was just going to say, I got to have an anecdote here.

Aidan Quest: Yeah. I think probably the most just fun kind of startup story was, very early on, we were lucky enough to get a pretty big budget from TikTok and we were trying to figure out how we would fill it. And at the time, it was kind of four of us working in a basement and we wanted to sort of stir some competitive energy between us. So we had an influencer style contest between us of who could make the best TikTok ad at the time and the winner got a pair of Gucci flip-flops, which was kind of meant to be a joke. But I ended up actually getting lucky in that one and winning that competition between us. And it actually ended up delivering, you know, close to probably like, I don't know. . .throughout its lifetime, that one ad probably did more than seven figures worth of, kind of, total value for the client and us, which was really exciting. At the time it was, I went to YouTube, I scraped up a very like, old, old, old video from a long time ago. It looked almost like a heartbeat under sand and put some dramatic music behind it, and things like that. And the call to action at the end was right when the thing looked like it was going to come out of the sand. It was like, "Swipe up to watch the end on TikTok." And we had, like, posted that video on TikTok and sort of showing where it would be. And unfortunately, it was just a hand coming up, but it looks like a monster under the sand. So that really blew up. A lot of our influencers thought it was great content. So they kind of posted it everywhere. And yeah, that was kind of I think from the early days. That's probably one of my favourite stories.

Peggy Anne Salz: I love it.

John Koetsier: You know what I love about that is that when you want to go super-viral, you can't predict it. You can optimise for it, but you can't predict it. And so you just kind of do enough stuff that you get enough at-bats that eventually you hit a home run by the law of averages if you've set yourself up for that. Talk about outcomes that advertisers should expect realistically and what metrics they should be looking at.

Aidan Quest: Yeah. Just to that point that you were making too, I think one of the biggest shifts that I had to make internally was that oftentimes what you think is right isn't right. We had a lot of learnings early on that native might mean kind of unpolished. It might mean, like, borderline grammatical errors in English. It's like, very. . .things that you might not expect like, sometimes it's poor lighting, things that you're really trying to make it feel as native and engaging for the audience. But to get specific at your questions in terms of outcomes, I tried. . .Again, think of it sort of in that kind of equation of your outcomes are going to be based on each of those variables of how many posts you're doing, how many views you're getting ultimately, and how good you are at making those ads and those conversions, right? So depending on how much time and energy you're going to put into each of those three categories is really kind of what those outcomes are going to be. If you're only working with five creators and you're going to get five ads up, and it's your first at-bat, maybe one of those five is going to work out particularly well, but I would really advocate for trying to start small, trying to get the creative down, trying to get influencer negotiation down. Every single discussion with an influencer, it's going to turn into a negotiation because they're going to quote you some really high price and you're going to have to sort of talk them down. Influencers do love getting free stuff. So free subscriptions, in-app things, stuff like that that creators do. The amount of value that you're losing to provide that to them, it doesn't equal the value that they sort of proceed from getting that stuff for free.

Peggy Anne Salz: So those are always the challenges around negotiating and hitting the metrics, hitting the KPIs. Talk about another bit of a challenge, you know, the changes. How has influencer marketing changed now that we are in a privacy-first marketplace, in an idealist world?

Aidan Quest: Yeah. So these are things, when you're talking to influencers, that they're going to have no idea about this, right, for the most part. I'd say, from my perspective on the creator side of the business, it hasn't affected us as much. One of those reasons is that, and maybe this is just too biassed from the JetFuel perspective, but we don't own any of the data on the apps, right? So we haven't been affected by ATT in the same levels. There are certain things with. . .a lot of our clients, they're using AppsFlyer for attribution. So things like instals are being delayed now, which, specifically for our app, we're providing influencers monetisation on the CPI basis. And influencers really want money upfront, which is what any new advertiser in the space is going to deal with. Influencers are going to say, "Hey, I have a flat fee." The advertiser is going to want to pay them on a CPA, or a CPI, or a CPM, but that's not really what the influencers want. So we have kind of trained our influencers on our app for a CPI-based payment method and that historically was all instantaneous. So an influencer would know sort of within the first 10 minutes of putting something up how well it was doing. Now, with the delays that have come out of some of the privacy changes in the industry, it's made our business a little bit more difficult, but ultimately we've been able to message things to creators and given them some strategies, and haven't seen much of a change.

John Koetsier: I think that makes a ton of sense and I think that influencer marketing has always been more, I don't want to say organic but has been more on the organic side of things. And it's been something that you've had to measure in different ways. It's not like, you know, a LinkedIn bio. That is not as measurable as "click here," with a tracking link or an advertiser ID, as Peggy was talking about, right? So that makes a ton of sense. Let's talk a little bit. . .We've hit on it already, you know, in terms of what influencers create, the creative that they build, and sometimes you have to give up a little bit of control over brand and brand assets. CMOs hate that, marketing people hate that. They want to control it, "This is how you say it. Here's where it's capitalised. These are the colours and this is the CMYK or the Pantone," or whatever. And influencers don't care, right? And they just want to do cool stuff with cool things for cool people. How do you navigate that between an influencer and maybe a more traditional brand?

Aidan Quest: Yeah, that's a great question. This is something that we deal with definitely a lot. I'd say on the top end of the market, so the influencers that are in the, you know, millions of follower range who charge high fees like, they're going to nail this. They've done this for big brands before. They've done an Adidas campaign, they've done a, you know, Fortune-500 campaign before. So they're going to get it right. They're also going to charge you an insane amount of money for it because that's what sometimes these larger brands have given them in the past. Working with smaller creators, there's a balance between being. . .and in terms of ultimately getting the creative that you want, there's a balance between giving them too much context and that they're not really going to read everything to be completely honest, and not enough context. So lists are very good with needs and specifics, setting expectations with the creator that we can do a couple versions if the first one doesn't come out okay. That's something influencers are actually very used to doing. They don't love it, but they understand that this happens. Something for advertisers to keep in mind too is that if you can come to a particular creator and show that you've watched their content, care about what they're doing, and have shown sort of how your app can kind of natively fit in within that content style, that's going to help your sort of conversion rate and actually getting a good outcome. So finding out influencers who are, you know, either if you have a great game, find some gamers on TikTok, or YouTube, or whatever platform you're interested in. And then you can even go a step further. If they do skits, you can think about, you know, maybe how you could integrate the app into the skit. All of that will help the influencer start thinking about things. And you can make sure that it's a two-way conversation too, you don't have to come with all the answers upfront.

John Koetsier: Still thinking about your anecdote, right? You know, the hand under the sand and, "Hey, got you Gucci flip-flops." So good for something. Looking back over all the campaigns, share with us your simplest or perhaps silliest tactic to get reach and impact.

Aidan Quest: Oh. That's a really good one. So I would say one that has worked on TikTok, which TikTok is now. . .honestly, a lot of what influencer marketing is, is trying to, like, game the algorithm a little bit. And so we had. . .I think, potentially the silliest would be on TikTok, we had a. . .In the intro, there's typically, like, if you're trying to boost your engagement, if your creator, you'll say, "Like, comment, share," or something like that. We had a creator write, "If you comment this text string in the comments, it'll give you a secret emoji." And it actually does create an emoji. But that just would cause people to flood to the comments section and then it looked like that video was getting a ton of engagement. And so a lot of those early ads actually went pretty viral.

John Koetsier: What you're saying is they're hackers and they'll find a way to make something grow.

Aidan Quest: Yeah. They're growth people, right? So they've figured out how to grow their audience in a way. So it's only. . .If you can. . .That's one of the reasons with influencer marketing, if you can find a way to align incentives well, they might be able to come up with things that you didn't think of in a way that's beneficial for both parties.

John Koetsier: And you're kind of insulated from that a little bit as a brand because the influencer is doing something, and sure it's for you, but, you know, it's not you doing it, it's not your ad per se. So there's some good things there. Well, Aidan, we always end with this. We ask for three top tips. I'm going to shake that up just a little bit because this is "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." So I'm going to end with your least censored opinion about influencer marketing, but let's start here, three top tips for mobile marketers using influencer marketing.

Aidan Quest: Three top tips. One is to do your research. So that means the kind of things I mentioned already, but making sure you're finding influencers with the right background, who have kind of the right audience for you, who are getting views that sort of makes sense. The next top tip would be don't overpay for things. Think of it as a sales process where you really want to fill the top of the funnel. You will find people who have reasonable pricing, it'll just take a long time. Then the third one would be really, like, myopically focus on creative and make sure that creative is based on the influencer that you're talking to. Don't try to use the same scripts between influencers, really try to make that as customisable as possible. And once you find something that works, maybe try to find other influencers who are very similar to them to help scale a lot of it quicker.

John Koetsier: Someone needs to tell the Russian government about that because I don't know if you saw the recent Russian influencer thing where they're all saying the same about the war in Ukraine and somebody put them all on the screen. And it was all like, all on repeat. Anyways, let's end here. Your least censored opinion. So least censored, Aidan, about what needs fixing most in influencer marketing.

Aidan Quest: Yeah, great question. So a couple of things here. One, I wish that Instagram would open up DMs to be a business-facing application. It's really annoying that we can't use. . .I think a lot of companies would pay a lot of money to be able to message creators in a bit more scalable way. You end up getting rate limited when you try to DM too many people at a time. So that would be. . .that's a big complaint of mine that I would love. The other one would be. . .And the platforms are starting to pilot a lot more of these, but just opening up API access a little bit more to give advertisers a little bit more context around what they're dealing with. Particularly for very big advertisers, if you're running thousands of influencer posts in a month, the process of, like, really understanding viewership dynamics and who's actually seeing those ads is very hard. But that's all data that the platforms themselves have. So I think those are probably the two of my kind of complaints, but I think. . .I've no idea if Instagram is going to release the business-facing product for Messenger, probably not. I think the platforms are, particularly TikTok is making a lot of inroads in making that data more accessible to interested parties.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time and it's been a pleasure.

Aidan Quest: Yeah. This was super fun. Thanks for having me.

Peggy Anne Salz: Great to have you, Aidan, and great tips. I mean, really interesting that you've looked at these tactics. I mean, it sounds like something. . .now, John, we can go out and do this now, right? We've got. . .

John Koetsier: Yeah, one-second looped video.

Peggy Anne Salz: There you go.

John Koetsier: Excellent.

Mar 23, 2022

Chatting with Top Women in Mobile Growth

March is women’s history month and includes International Women’s Day, so of course we’re chatting with two incredible leaders in mobile growth and user acquisition who just happen to be women. 

One is currently a user acquisition manager at Voodoo and has led growth at other top games studios like Jam City. She’s Radostina Zhekova, and she tells us what she’s learned and how she’s grown in a traditionally male-dominated space. The other leads product at Drest, “the world’s first interactive luxury styling game.” She’s Johanna Vuorela, and she’s led growth, built games studios, co-founded companies, and built dream teams.

In this episode we get their best advice, top tips, and opinions about how to grow in the game of growth.

29 min

John Koetsier: Hello, and welcome to Mobile Heroes Uncensored. It's a different kind of episode today. We are focusing on some of the people on mobile, which we always do, right, Peggy? But March is a little different. It is Women's History Month. And guess what, on the 8th of this month, it is International Women's Day. So today we're celebrating the many remarkable achievements of women in tech, specifically, mobile marketing. My name is John Koetsier. My co-host is Peggy Anne Salz. And in this episode, we're talking to two very specific mobile heroes about their journey in technology. Peggy, who are they?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we have Radostina Zhekova. She is User Acquisition Manager at Voodoo, where she focuses on mobile app growth strategies and media buying and campaign optimization, so very much down in the weeds. But she also works on a newly launched game, Collect Em All! Clear the Dots. And finally, her career started, won't say way back in 2016, but she says that on her CV. Yeah, way back in the day when she landed her first gig in mobile marketing. And since then, she's worked for some of the top gaming companies, including Jam City. Great to have you Radostina.

Radostina Zhekova: Thank you very much. Yeah, I guess it feels longer than it actually is.

John Koetsier: I wish I had started way back in 2016. Wow.

Peggy Anne Salz: I preceded the iPhone, that's all I'm just going to say here. And we also have Johanna Vuorela, Product Director at DREST, the world's first interactive luxury styling game, bringing gaming focus to product strategy and management is what she does. And her path is extensive, including gigs heading up commercial games development, also publishing, and get this, Johanna was also the co-founder of an independent gaming studio, Curioso Games. Her colleagues…so I always do a little bit of research, this is the one I want, John. This is great. Working with her, her colleagues creates a dream team. So here we are, we already have the dream team going strong, strong women, smart women in this episode, John. So let's dive in.

John Koetsier: Wow, what the heck am I doing here?

Peggy Anne Salz: Oh, really?

John Koetsier: I know, not smart. I'm not a woman.

Johanna Vuorela: We need a second man.

John Koetsier: I don't belong. Well, let's start with Johanna, we always want to look at successful people, see how they've done it. And this is no different. Johanna, you're working at a fashion gaming company, how's that compared to wherever else you've worked?

Johanna Vuorela: I think it's actually very, very different. And first of all, this company is female led. So it has very strong female leadership. And I think the way you see that is it's a very flexible culture, it's very sort of focused on building that culture. And it's sort of very open and kind of takes people's life circumstances and everything into consideration to create this company that's very supportive. And I think that's not to say that the previous companies haven't been supportive, but it's like on a very different level. Plus, it's really exciting to see a lot of women in a company where usually there's been just a few of us, whereas now, there's an army of really inspiring women. So it's been really exciting.

John Koetsier: What has it been like to do your role? And what have you learned as a woman in your position?

Johanna Vuorela: Fifty percent of the mobile gamers, in some categories more, are women. So when you actually have more women at the table, and in the leadership level, it changes that dynamic. And you feel like you're making more sort of authentic experiences that you can actually tap into the talent to get that feedback. And really, from a product perspective, you can shape the product, because you've got the people around you as well, that can sort of feed back into it. So I think that's the thing that makes it super exciting and rewarding at the same time.

John Koetsier: Love it.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that. Like a positive feedback loop, because you're making experiences for other women, and they can be very different. You know, I mean, women also play action games. I'm not saying that.

Johanna Vuorela: Oh, yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: Hell, yeah. Absolutely. I do. Good. Radostina, I want to switch to you. You're interesting because you were in a male dominated studio, and it wasn't because you were discriminated against, there was a very good reason for it to be that way. Tell us about that and what you're doing now.

Radostina Zhekova: Yeah, it was actually a gay dating app that I was working on. And I was the only woman in the office. That was a really unique experience in my career and very different. Because yeah, being the only woman is interesting and it's challenging. In the beginning it was tough because I had to, yeah, like to be patient and put in a lot of effort to fit in and be included. And this eventually happened. So I guess the biggest learning from this experience is not to take things personally and be a bit more patient with things and people. And of course, you need to prove yourself, you need to get out there and people will see you for what you are. And they will start including you and they will trust you.

Peggy Anne Salz: I mean, the joy of work is when you can make a worthwhile contribution, at least that's it for me, is when you find your voice. Now, you’ve said yourself at your other studio, it was a little bit difficult to sort of find that way. You had to be very patient. What have you also learned there? What has allowed you to make a contribution at Voodoo?

Radostina Zhekova: I think these two things that I mentioned really allowed me to focus on work actually, and not really drill into any unnecessary drama, let's say that way, and like taking it too personally and going in a negative direction. So this allowed me to focus more professionally on what are my goals as a professional, what I want to learn. How I want to be perceived. I wanted to be perceived as someone who is expert in a certain field. And it motivated me to work towards this goal and prove myself, like, to me and obviously to my colleagues. And this ultimately helped me deliver and be better at my job in the next companies that I worked for.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about mentors. I think most of us have a couple of people, maybe some of us have even more, who have made really significant differences in our careers. Who we've become, how we've developed, how we've grown, what we've learned about how to present ourselves, how to speak, how to be, how to grow, all those things. I think it's particularly important, from what I've heard from women, to have had role models, especially in technology. Who's been a mentor for you, Johanna?

Johanna Vuorela: I was very lucky when I joined the games industry, we had a couple of women in the office. I just really want to call two of them in particular, because they really shaped how my career in a way ended up, and how I kind of approach things. They were very different, Victoria and Catalina, very, very different. The other one was sort of very calm, organized studio head, incredible, incredible experience and all the things. It's just like very organized. She told me that. And then we had our head of sales, it was just like, passion and fire and just this confidence. And when she would walk into the room, you're just like, she's going to sell it. And I think seeing her pretty much in my, I don't know, kind of early days was really inspiring. And you learn these different approaches.

I remember her having this conversation with our finance director, just about travelling. They booked her on some flight around the moon to go to the client. And she's like, look, I'm not having that. It's like, I'm going to go and I'm going to sell this, I'm going to sell millions here. I want my client to see that I'm coming in this. And it's like, no, no, but you know, this is your kind of goal. And they had this whole thing. It's like no, that's what I'm going to have, as I'm going to go there, I'm going to have this business, but I want my client to see that this is…and it's just this whole thing. And needless to say, she did fly how she wanted to fly, and she did bring back the business, but it's just like she wasn't having any of it. But at the same time she was wonderful to work with, she would lift other people. And it's the same thing for both of them, they would just lift other people and always support. So I was very lucky to have these two right off the bat sort of helping me out as well to find my feet.

Peggy Anne Salz: I love that.

John Koetsier: That is such a rare combination. Go ahead, Peggy.

Peggy Anne Salz: All right, John. I was just so enthusiastic I over-spoke.

John Koetsier: That's okay.

Peggy Anne Salz: No, but I really love when someone lifts you. And they're just being themselves, but they are also a role model without even trying to be, they're just being themselves. So that was inspiring.

John Koetsier: And it is inspiring, Peggy, because it's not that many people who are both that really out there, big personality, and also focused on others and helping them grow. So that's really, really cool. Radostina, how about you? Who's been a mentor for you?

Radostina Zhekova: I guess I can relate, I was also lucky with my first job in mobile because I was surrounded with some really great women. And my direct manager was a woman at that time and she was great, very demanding, and a perfectionist. So she was really looking at all the details. And of course sometimes I would have a hard time, you know, like why did you write this like that? I had to go back and revise things. But this really helped me a lot in my career. And also I had this strategy, I came up with a strategy back then I would just observe all the women around me. And I would decide on one thing that I really like about them, because I think everyone is strong in one or more things. And I'll try to like mimic and kind of learn it myself. So I've done that with colleagues and friends as well. And it's a great way to improve yourself, if you find…

John Koetsier: Smart.

Peggy Anne Salz: I love that, absorbing the best of everyone around you, literally learning from the best. And we talked about people who helped us up the rung, right, who helped us out. And sometimes it's just that one piece of amazing advice, right, you get on the trajectory for success. I'd like to hear from both of you. Radostina, I'll start with you. You know, what was the advice that really sparked the flame, the burning desire to succeed, rather, in gaming?

Radostina Zhekova: Ah, it's a tough one. I feel like the advice that I've been given the most was like, just to be more confident, and to own it, to know that I'm doing a great job and to be proud of it. That's something I think women, not only in gaming, but everywhere, we're always doubting ourselves. Are we good enough? Did we do a good job? And it's a very cliché, like everyone can tell you, okay, just be confident. And then you can just do it. It's a process. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of effort. And it's still something that I'm working towards, basically.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that. Very simple, own it.

John Koetsier: I shouldn't say this. I mean, like, I'm giving away secrets here. But you know what, men have that too. Maybe not all, and I'm sure there's women who don't have that as well. But there's imposter syndrome. And there's like, am I good enough to do this? All that stuff. It does happen. Not to me, never, of course.

Peggy Anne Salz: No.

John Koetsier: Joking.

Radostina Zhekova: Maybe you are better at just covering things.

Peggy Anne Salz: Men are very good at hiding it, you know, really…

John Koetsier: Really? We hide stuff? No. Can we get your husband in here, Peggy?

Peggy Anne Salz: No, he's hiding. No, I'm just kidding. No. We'll ask you the same question now, one piece of advice that sparked the fire that started off with you, Johanna?

Johanna Vuorela: Oh, there's so many. I mean, Radostina already made some really good points. And I'm trying to think of what would be the thing. And I guess, one would be that when you work in the mobile space, in particular, you don't…not everybody knows everything. Things change really quickly. Nobody knows everything. But it's about having that belief in yourself, having the belief in your experience to act just like, okay, you might not know everything right now. But you have the skills in you, the ability to go and find out, to tap into your network, speak to people. You can figure it out.

And I think once you kind of figure it out, that we're all figuring things out and working things out all the time. It sort of gives you that confidence that, all right, we're all on the same boat, we're always trying to figure something out. And then I think that's…that was the biggest advice. And that's the thing I always pass on to anybody who comes into the teams, like, don't worry, we're all kind of figuring out. There's no set way of doing this. Some things there are, but for most things, there are new ways that we can find how we can work this. And I think knowing that is something that just kind of gives me that confidence on a day to day basis and keeps that imposter syndrome at bay, when those bells have rung.

Radostina Zhekova: Yeah. This is a really great point. Yeah, I could totally relate on trying to catch up and being on top of everything all the time, and worrying that you're not.

John Koetsier: Yeah. You know what's really meaningful for me there is that you don't have to be confident that you know it all. You don't have to be confident that you can do it all. You do have to be confident that when you come across something that's new, you can figure it out. You can get help. You can do what you need to do, to get where you need to be to make it work. And if you have and develop that confidence, and you've seen that in yourself over time, hey, I had that challenge. And I figured that out. And I got that help. And that worked out, then you've got some confidence that you can face the future.

Let's talk about giving back a little bit, because both of you have had women that you've looked up to that you've sort of chameleoned, taking the best parts and learned from. How can women in mobile give back? How can you give back? Maybe let's start here. What advice would you give to women who are starting out right now in mobile gaming?

Johanna Vuorela: Don't join companies where you're the first…the only woman. That's one advice I would give, that I would learn. You know, if you're just starting out, seek out companies that have women in their leadership, have women working in there. And you can often tell from some of the questions that you get in interviews and things like that, you can get a good sense of what it is, because you're going to need that network. And you know, there's a lot to figure out. And there's a lot of things that I know now that I didn't know at the time. But because I was very fortunate to have these women around me supporting me and kind of thinking about, I was like, all right, there I'm going to pass on a few things. So I always kind of say that's the thing to look out for in a company, is they do have women in there. That you're not the first.

Peggy Anne Salz: What are some of the questions in the interview that are the red flags?

Johanna Vuorela: I can tell you a funny one that I had. It was a while back now. But a company reached out to me, and it was a product role. And I was like, okay, let's have this chat. And I remember them saying that. "So how would you feel that you will be the oldest person in the company? Because everybody's under 25, predominantly under 25. And you'd be pretty much the only woman. And you know, we got some silly boys in there." So basically, it was kind of like, would you be comfortable kind of being the mother of the company? I'm like…

John Koetsier: No.

Johanna Vuorela: That was kind of the general gist of it. And I was just like, oh, first of all, how old do you think I am? But at the same time, it's kind of like you have this thing, like, is this really happening? Was this a real question? Needless to say, that didn't become a thing. It was like, I was just a little bit like thrown off by that question, just this whole…pretty much these three things. So that was something else, so yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: That is like, would you mind babysitting? Is like the question.

Johanna Vuorela: That was it, would you like to be a mom for these boys?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

John Koetsier: No, thank you. I have enough of that at home. Radostina, what advice would you give to women who are starting out?

Radostina Zhekova: I could echo Johanna's advice. I think finding a woman mentor is a great way to learn and to get support. I think women are great and inspiring, especially other women. And it could only help you. Or, also another strategy is when you start in a new field, find people that you're looking up to, and learn from them. So you need to start from somewhere. And then on the way you find yourself, you find your own path.

John Koetsier: Nice.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that right there. I want to go back for a moment. We just talked about the inspiration, the advice that you would give others. You're both very far along in your careers. What's the most ridiculous statement or stereotype you've experienced? I mean, Johanna, we heard about the babysitting, but tell me one and how you dealt with it?

Johanna Vuorela: We've had in the past, I think, I was just trying to think of an example here. You know, you sometimes get this thing that if it's anything technical, or anything sort of known to marketing or something that you can't possibly understand. I've had instances where we've had clients who weren't really comfortable with a woman being a project manager or for something, it's like you can't possibly understand, do you have any man in there? Whereas, at the time, we had incredible project managers, female project managers, and it's like…and usually you just deal with like, well, this is the options and these are the professionals that we have, that you're looking for the best. And this is what we have.

And oftentimes people kind of realize, sort of the attitudes that come out of it, but you just have to be quite forward about it, that this is what it is, you know, looking for the best. And at the same time, you also start looking at the people that you want to work with. You know, whether it's unconscious bias, or whether there's actually like, okay, we don't want to work with these people. This is not worthwhile. This is not good for our company. This is not good for our team. So you start looking at it that way. And the more established your business becomes the more sort of people are like, okay, we want to choose who we work with. And I think those…probably those sort of examples I've seen in the past.

Peggy Anne Salz: So people say you can't handle it. So that's their bias. You ran into it all the time. Radostina, what about you? What about a stereotype that you had to overcome?

Radostina Zhekova: I think this stereotype, it wasn't any comment or anything that I've been told. It was more a behaviour or a certain attitude just that gives you the feeling. And it was mainly coming from underestimating you. Whether it's, I don't know, based on your background, or the fact that I'm a woman, or the fact of where I'm coming from. I don't know, right. And as I mentioned, I'm just trying not to take it personally. And I tried to…I understood that it's about them, it's not about me. And these are people that have their own problems, I guess, and their own story. So I should focus on, dividing the professional from the personal and keep repeating to myself, that's professional. That's work. I should not…this is not what defines me, or like, how people are treating me wouldn't really define me, how I am, and shouldn't. It's hard, but eventually you get there with experience.

John Koetsier: Maybe one question we'll give to both you as well, and maybe Radostina we'll start with you. We talked about imposter syndrome. We talked about feeling like, can I do this? Am I as good as, you know, I need to be? Can I actually fill this role? How do you overcome that?

Radostina Zhekova: I just go for it. This is advice I got from a male friend actually. He was just asking, like, what will be the worst thing that will happen if you fail, right? Like, even if you're not ready, what will be the worst thing? And if you think about it, like what could be the worst thing that will happen? You need to try, you need to go, and you need to just…if it's something you want, you're passionate about, you're interested, just try. It might be that you'll be surprised by yourself. Like, it's difficult to overcome, and you just need to push yourself and go for it. This is how I'm doing it at least. I don't know if, Johanna, maybe you have a better way?

Peggy Anne Salz: I think she's feeling great.

Johanna Vuorela: No, I think you have a really good point there. I mean, to be honest, it's like as women, and like, we see that all the time, that we try to be perfect, and we've so become afraid of making mistakes. Whereas you learned so much by doing. It's like, okay, well, all right, that happened. How do we figure this out? And it's just that having that belief. And one thing that someone I used to work with said that you have to take stock sometimes of the things that you've been doing, your achievements and things like that, and just for yourself. Because often we do things and we don't really celebrate those successes that we have, we get too caught up in things that went wrong.

You know, even when things go wrong, you can learn. There's learnings in there. As long as you're open to it, and you're always willing to learn and kind of figure it out, you can look it up, but that's what I did to get out of that pickle. And I think that is the thing that will help you along the way, celebrating your successes and at the same time just like continuously learning and being open to it. And not sweating about the small stuff. I read a book recently that was called, "Everything is Figureoutable." And I actually fully agree with that. Everything is figureoutable, it's just like the sort of attitude. And I think that will help in this case as well. We're always figuring things out.

John Koetsier: What I really like about that is, because as Radostina was talking, I was going like, yeah, that's my attitude too. I'll just go, what's the worst that can happen? Jump in. And I think that's great advice. And I think the challenge that some of us have, and let's be honest, sometimes we have ourselves as well is, how do you make that leap when you're not confident enough to make that leap? And I think the key is, Johanna, as you talked about, celebrate your successes. You've come a long way. You've done incredible things. And if you don't have a lot of them, start small, little things. And then you build that muscle of just trying and not caring, and not listening to the interior voices that say, no, and you can't, and you suck, and all this other stuff, just going for it.

Johanna Vuorela: And talk to other people, people that have worked with you, people that know you, because that's often…you know, we can become kind of stuck in our own heads. But then when you actually speak to people that have worked with you, it's like, "Oh my God, do you not remember when we did this," or you've done that. And it's just like, it's a really good experience. So it's the thing about lifting other people up as well, acknowledging the things that they've done, especially because we can spot it when somebody is feeling a bit doubtful. So take that moment to kind of go and lift the other person up and highlight all the cool stuff that they can do, they've done, and that oftentimes kind of gives you that nudge as well.

Peggy Anne Salz: And great for team building as well. I mean, we didn't touch upon it, but you know, it is, to your point, John, being the only male here, it's not just about diversity, it's about diverse opinions and inviting that into our teams. So you know, male, female, whatever, sitting at the table and saying, okay, give your input, give your feedback. So, yes, great advice there.

I did want to zoom in a little bit on Radostina because she is not just a mobile hero with a blog, as they all have, but it's really all about experimenting and thinking outside the box, and there, inviting diverse opinions. I just wanted to have you maybe zoom in on how you do that, maybe just one quick lesson on getting everyone at the table to talk.

Radostina Zhekova: Yeah, I think the most important part of having everyone comfortable to talk is creating the right environment. And this, I think, it's done by example, like, you lead by example, when you are authentic, and honest. And when you are just a human being and you're able to admit your mistakes, or have an opinion when it might not be pleasant or exactly politically correct, but you still are brave enough to share. People will mimic you. They will see that it's okay to speak up. So I truly believe that people can share opinions if they feel safe and comfortable, and that there won't be any bad consequences. And that this will only bring constructive discussion. And this happens by everyone being honest, especially if you're in a management position where you have a team to take care of. You need to show them by your own example.

John Koetsier: Cool. Well, maybe we'll end here. And usually, Peggy, we do have the top three tips, but I switched it up this time, because we have a special episode. And maybe we'll end with kind of just one thing from each of you. And we'll start with Johanna, what would you tell young women who are considering mobile marketing as a profession?

Johanna Vuorela: Do it. Join it. You know, it's a wealth of opportunities, wealth of opportunities. And we're all mobile. I can speak from the mobile gaming side, but you know, I said before, this is a $90 billion business, right? And half of the gamers are women. And we need that perspective. Look at the roles, look at the offerings. Find a studio. There's a wealth of it that is looking for your experience. And it's always hard to find, and so we're always looking, so there's just plenty of opportunity. So just go for it. Don't wait until you are 150% over the job description. Can you do the roll? Do you have the thing? And just go for it. That's the thing I would say.

John Koetsier: Awesome. So, Radostina, Johanna stole Nike's slogan right there. What's your advice?

Radostina Zhekova: I admit it, Johanna made it very difficult for me now. It's fun. It's challenging. So if they're up for adventure, yeah, just go for it. I just…

John Koetsier: Love it. Love it. If you're up for adventure, go for it. Well, we want to thank you Johanna, Radostina. It has been a real pleasure. It has been amazing. It has been great to listen to you, to learn from you. And thank you for sharing.

Radostina Zhekova:Thank you very much.

Johanna Vuorela: Thank you so much for having us.

Peggy Anne Salz: I have to add I just love hands-on discussions and one that is uplifting, so again, a plus one from my end as well. Thanks so much.

John Koetsier: Thanks.

Johanna Vuorela: Thank you so much. It's been an absolute joy.

Peggy Anne Salz: Part of our job, John, because what do we do? We shine a light on mobile marketers, with superpowers the same as today. So of course, if others think you fit the bill, then come on in, apply to be a mobile hero like Radostina, just ping us on LinkedIn, Twitter. John's there, I'm there. We will get that party started.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Excellent. We're on YouTube. We are on audio on all the podcasting platforms. So see you there. And thanks again to our guests today.

Mar 16, 2022

Unveiling the DNA of Successful Mobile Games

Games with insects are super-hot right now. So are fashion games. And so are games with 2D cartoony graphics. So maybe it’s time to make a game about fashion choices for beetles in 2D?

If you want to grab a place on the Top Grossing charts for games, it pays to pay attention to SensorTower’s data on what’s working and what’s hot. In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we chat with SensorTower mobile insights strategist Craig Chapple. Chapple, who used to play games for a living at PocketGamer, shares what’s working, what’s hot, what’s new, and what’s trending in mobile game subjects, styles, and genres.

We also chat about paying players, profitability, and the controversial new part of so many games: NFTs and crypto.

29 min

John Koetsier: As you know, in mobile gaming, you win with data. Usually it's your own data, it's the data about how your marketing is going. It's not just your data. Sometimes you need data from others, you need environmental data, vertical data, all that stuff. Welcome to Mobile Heroes uncensored. My name is John Koetsier, and my co-host, of course, is Peggy Anne Salz. And today, we are again, digging deep into data, not just your marketing results or your ad campaign data, but data about the digital world, your space, your vertical, your competitors. Peggy, who are we chatting with today?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, John, we're continuing our world tour of data companies, data company number two in our series, we touch down in Europe, and our guest is Craig Chapple. He's Mobile Insights Strategist, EMEA, at Sensor Tower, where he shares analysis on mobile apps and games market in particular, because he was before, Senior Editor of Mobile Games at the website,, and He's a frequent speaker, and he's here to speak with us today. John, welcome. Craig, great to have you.

Craig Chapple: Thanks so much for having me.

John Koetsier: We are really pumped to have you and we have to start here. I mean, you're at "Pocket Gamer," you're literally getting paid to play games and talk about them. And I know there's lots of sniping from, why didn’t you play that game, or why didn't you do that one? Or, boy, you suck at playing that game that sorts of, but why'd you switch?

Craig Chapple: Yeah, I mean, just firstly, I have always loved journalism. I studied journalism for three years, then I was really lucky to have my first job. I've always wanted to work in games, but I thought I was going to be working in newspapers. And then I was so lucky that I didn't even know like a town over from me was "Develop" magazine, a UK games industry trade magazine. So I did that for years, briefly went into marketing Nintendo, and then "Pocket Gamer."

And then an opportunity kind of turned up for Sensor Tower, which really excited me because actually it uses a lot of the skills that I already have. I joke, but sometimes it's kind of like the same job. You know, I'm writing about mobile games, but now obviously, I'm using the data specifically from Sensor Tower. And that was always kind of my favourite part of writing stories, not just the investigations, which I love, but using like data and kind of going deeper into it, and finding out the real interesting insights that you could kind of bring to people, and so they could actually learn something from that.

Peggy Anne Salz: So a strong background in data. And I know you from "Pocket Gamer," because I used to work with you, Craig, you understand both sides. If you look at it, and you'd want to talk to mobile marketers now thinking about data. I mean, what does that daily balanced, healthy diet of data look like these days?

Craig Chapple: I would just say, make sure you're keeping yourself informed all the time. Obviously, working at Sensor Tower, I'm using data always. And I'm constantly investigating how games and the wider market is performing, and looking for interesting angles for content. So I think the best thing you can do are to really get the meat, if we're going with that theme, really get the meat out of data is kind of keeping track of industry sites. So obviously, plug that where I used to work. But you know, you’ve also got, GamesBeat, and many others came down. And then as well as that, reading reports from various data companies out there who are always tracking industry trends, and looking to provide insights. And then also keep track of, if you can, financial reports, or at least the stories covering those. And it's this stuff that all together with the data really builds context and forms the foundation for how you can interpret it. So I think like without that knowledge, data can be random and misunderstood. But without the data, you're just making decisions based on your own experiences and biases. So you need both together.

John Koetsier: I like that. And you actually have to keep that up to date, right? Because I think things change, a pandemic hits and patterns change, and what people like changes, all that stuff. Obviously, you're big into games, you came from "Pocket Gamer." What are you seeing right now? What are the key drivers of game success today?

Craig Chapple: I think some of the stuff are probably are such that might be fairly obvious to a lot of people but, you know, they're important to know. You know, I think clearly one of the biggest drivers, particularly in mobile is LiveOps, or Games as a Service, which is obviously increasingly bigger on PC for certain types of titles. I think there's an expectation now from consumers that games will receive like a constant stream of new updates, such as new levels and features, as well as events. This fuels engagement and increases retention for the long term, and really is a major reason why the world's top-grossing mobile games have stayed at the top for so long. But I'm sure when you see the monthly charts over the course of a year, they rarely change. It's almost the same games all the time, unless there's a big launch. And then that might disappear for a little while, right? So really takes a long time together.

Social, obviously important. That's from simple leaderboards, adding something like the competitive nature, and giving you something to aim for, right up to being part of a clan, sharing goals and rewards, or just actually playing together in real time. I think outside of mobile, even single player games now like Elden Ring, obviously FromSoftware has been doing this kind of feature for a long time, and sells Bloodborne games. But they do a great job of…it's a single player game, with many social elements. You know, there'll be messages left for people usually telling you to jump off a cliff, which I don't appreciate.

Peggy Anne Salz: In the game.

Craig Chapple: Oh, yeah.

John Koetsier: Yes, in the game.

Craig Chapple: To be fair, you get a lot of good tips from random messages but sometimes they just drive you the wrong way. But it really adds to the world, it makes it kind of more fun, which is really what you're trying to do. And yeah, so generally, when you're building long lasting games, I'd say these are the pretty standard requirements, as always, kind of depends what type of title you're making. But in the end, you could have all of that, but if your game isn't fun, then it doesn't really matter.

Peggy Anne Salz: It's almost a segue here, because speaking of fun you're looking at trends, you're looking a lot at what games companies need to be looking at, but you also do your own research to a great extent, Craig. You've looked at and worked on your own taxonomy of themes and genres in games. Tell us about that. Walk us through that.

Craig Chapple: Yes, so we've had our own game taxonomy for a while now. And we're constantly looking to add to it and improve it. Basically, we've gone through and categorized games into our own defined genres, which when we were first putting it together, a shout out to Deconstructor of Fun, we were putting it kind of together with them. So people can search for categories that are just more relevant to how the industry kind of categorizes games, as opposed to how the App Store, Google Play, the categories that they offer, which still have their place, but it is…I think the industry's just a bit more granular, perhaps, than that offers. And so yes, so we've added…but since then, we've added additional layers. So you can now look at themes, settings, camera point of view, art style, are big descriptors. Yeah. Sorry, I could go on.

John Koetsier: You shouldn't mind, it’s interesting.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

Craig Chapple: We're also now looking at monetization descriptors, which I'll be happy to go into, at some point. So that's launching soon. We're now putting together a report on that. I could leap into some of the data right now of…

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, do. You can literally jump in because it's about animals, for one thing. I mean, this is a taxonomy that went so far into depth, I was looking and thinking, really, insects, Craig?

Craig Chapple: Yeah, I mean, I guess you have to define them some way. So yeah, we come up with our own kind of taxonomy of themes, settings, etc. So I put together in January, maybe early February, a couple blog posts to kind of see, okay, for the whole of 2021, comparing that to 2020, I focus on the U.S., which are like the fastest growing themes or genres. And then also which ones are actually…but from that, also, which ones are actually making the most money, because sometimes fastest growing might tell you of a new trend, but maybe it's such a small genre. So when looking at genre revenue growth in the U.S., we found that mobile action games, which includes titles like Genshin Impact, in our taxonomy, grew revenue by 69% year-over-year. And then that was followed by hyper-casual, and Tabletops. So I'm only talking about player spending, not ad spending, just to be clear.

And puzzle though was the largest category by player spending, picked up $5.1 billion, this is just in the U.S., followed by casino and strategy, interestingly. When I looked at downloads, every single genre saw a decline overall of installs year-over-year in the U.S., in 2021. You can obviously put that down to, so 2020 just saw outsized growth, obviously because of the…sorry to bring it up, the pandemic and the lockdowns. So 2021 couldn't quite match that, but overall revenue is up for most genres.

John Koetsier: I have to dig into this because you've mentioned some of the taxonomy stuff, but I got these notes here and you got taxonomies around animals, around insects, what's going on there?

Craig Chapple: Yeah. I think that one, that's largely driven by…so that increased that theme, animal insect, as we call it. So we have animal as like a general kind of descriptor. And then we also narrow it down. So in this case, we have animal insect. Yeah. But it really means you can get granular level. But in this case, yeah, that theme just saw really like a 10 times increase in revenue, largely led by a single game, I think it was about 89%, 90% of the revenue, The Ants: Underground Kingdom.

After that, after animal insect, you've also got fashion, which I think is perhaps a more interesting one, because there's more games doing that. And I'd say that's actually like a real trend. And you've got games, I think, High Heels!, which I think is from Zynga. And then you got Project Makeover from Magic Tavern, AppLovin. I think that's a theme with a real trend. It also shows when you look at this data, you really do have to look deeper into the games that are driving it. Because you know, if you saw, oh, insects is the fastest growing theme, we'll use that for our next game. There's only one game that's actually driving that, so you really need to look carefully at all of them.

John Koetsier: Yeah, I almost don't know what to do with that, bugs are big. Our next game has to have bugs. Which should we do: ants, or bees, beetles? Let's go to Sensor Tower and see which insect is the hottest bug for our next game? It may not get that granular. And you know what? Some of those things may be incidental. But maybe one thing that is less incidental and maybe more fashion driven, which is apropos what you were just talking about, art styles also go through trends and seasons, what's hot right now?

Craig Chapple: Yeah, so the top-grossing art style last year was 2D cartoon. So that includes titles like Candy Crush Saga, and Coin Master. And that generated about, combined altogether, $12 billion in total in the U.S. And then that was followed by 2D realistic, and 3D realistic. And meanwhile, the fastest growing art style by revenue was Neon, which includes titles like Beatstar by Space Ape, which is pretty cool. And Tiles Hop, I think that's by Amanotes, but I can't remember.

John Koetsier: We'll double check. We'll double check. Peggy, I never would have thought, I never would have thought that somebody would be tracking revenue in mobile games by art style. It's kind of blowing me away. How quickly do those trends change? You know, how quickly do they turn over, Craig?

Craig Chapple: Yeah. I guess some trends are long lasting, some change quite quickly. When I did a similar report in 2020, and I looked at, at the time, just Q1 to Q3, and obviously, 2020 is like a weird year, but at that time, I think the fastest growing theme, for example, was actually post-apocalypse, of all things.

John Koetsier: Shocker.

Craig Chapple: Yeah, can't make it up. But it was kind of weird, because, you know, games are really like an escapism, but I guess people were escaping in that way, while they're at home. I think over the last couple of years, fashion has become bigger, and you can kind of see that happening. So yeah, they change quite a lot. And actually, one interesting thing that I saw, these are the things that I find really interesting was that Small Giant Games, they were soft launching puzzle combat, which is kind of like Empires & Puzzles. And initially their theme was something like modern military or military. And I don't know, this is my comparisons behind that, but they had a change, and it's now like more of a zombie game.

So clearly, to me, it seems like they've looked at their soft launch data, maybe they've looked at what's popular in the market, seeing zombie games are on the rise, or just popular in general, and decided that's appropriate for their game. So they actually kind of changed it a bit. And then they got to the point where they could go into Global Watch. So as ridiculous as it might be when you get really granular, this kind of data actually can really help inform your own data. Or just even when you're just concepting, and thinking of, okay, what's the best kind of theme or art style for our type of game?

Peggy Anne Salz: We just got a free tip here then, because I was going to say, well, how do we apply this? And now we hear it. So basically, you want to hit the money, it's a neon bug game. Right?

John Koetsier: With zombies.

Craig Chapple: With zombies.

Peggy Anne Salz: With zombies. That was so yesterday, John.

John Koetsier: No, zombies are always big. Because guess what? It's guilt-free violence.

Craig Chapple: Everyone loves a zombie game. So, many of my favourites, Left 4 Dead, Last of Us. I don’t know, many.

Peggy Anne Salz: There you go.

John Koetsier: Yeah. There's one zombie game that keeps targeting me with their playable ads, and I have to place like machine guns. And there's a zombie horde attacking my castle or whatever, a house, I don't even know what the name is. But yes, zombies are always hot, Peggy.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's it. So we have an idea of the genre, of the art style. I'm going to look at profitability. I mean, what is happening in the games, the games that are really making the money, maybe you can pick some winners and losers here, Craig.

Craig Chapple: That’s a bit risky, winners and losers. I guess I could start by just kind of giving the background of what kind of happened in 2021. So I think more people than ever, are spending more money on mobile games, at least that's what our data is kind of showing. So last year, there were eight titles that generated more than $1 billion globally across the App Store and Google Play, I'm not including third party Android stores, such as those in China there. But yeah, and that's compared to five, which is still a big number, in 2020. So the market is growing very quickly, I would say. We estimate, overall, that the global games market generated $88.6 billion dollars from player spending, again, across the App Store and Google Play in 2021, which was up 11%, year-over-year, which was slower than 2020. But the reasons that we've kind of explained of why 2020 saw such a fast rise.

So the winners or losers, which everyone clearly wants to know. I guess, in my opinion, some of the games. So I mean, Genshin Impact was obviously, probably the big winner, new launch, brand new IP, although it can be…I think they were building, if I'm correct, like the anime a bit before that. That’s still like a brand new IP, built in China. And it's now global success. And you can't even say that, it's like a global success, and all that revenue is in China, a highly lucrative market. It is all over the globe, which to me $2 billion in one year, new IP.

John Koetsier: That's big.

Craig Chapple: That's crazy. And I think it really shows like China, the publishers there are now very much global facing companies that can create hit titles around the world. You've got PUBG Mobile, which I appreciate it's like an IP from South Korea, but Chinese developer. And then what else have you got? Obviously Genshin Impact. And you've also got Call of Duty mobile, right, like Activision, but developed in partnership with Tencent's TiMi Studio. And then you've got some other I think big shooters that are basically U.S. publishers partnering with China. So that's a big one now. I think another one, I still think is Pokémon Go, is a big one.

John Koetsier: Amazing. Incredible. It's a zombie, it's unkillable.

Craig Chapple: Again, a popular theme. But yeah, like 2020 could easily have not been as successful as it had been, which had been a very successful theme prior, but they released some key updates and they make it easier for people at home. But also, I think actually that maybe kind of helps in some ways, a lot of help support work that caused Pokémon Go to even be a bit more successful because people couldn't do anything. And the few times they could go out, they might choose as an activity Pokémon Go actually really suited. But yeah, full credit to Niantic. And they've continued it into 2021. They made, according to our estimates, $1.3 billion just from player spending globally. So big winner. Losers, hmm?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, we could say losers. Yeah, we get all the billionaires. We got the billionaire part.

Craig Chapple: Yeah. I'm probably going to cheat with this one. It's kind of a winner and we'll see how it goes. You know, I think we get to the grimly forecast death knell, if you like, to put it dramatically, of hyper-casual games, doesn't seem to have happened. But I think how publishers navigate this in future, and the App Store and Google Play might continue to kind of shape their rules and regulations, maybe enforce some of those new rules a bit more for everyone, then that could prove quite challenging over the next couple of years. But I guess we'll see.

John Koetsier: I guess we will see. And it's also a little bit of confirmation that even when the environment changes, the ecosystem changes, that doesn't necessarily change people's behaviour, they still get those apps, they still play those apps. Of course, if app discovery changes significantly, as you mentioned, over the next couple years with additional enforcement, maybe Private Relay, maybe iOS 15, getting extensions there, all that stuff, we will have to see. You do have a report coming up on monetization trends. We're looking for a sneak peek of what's coming up.

Craig Chapple: Yeah, so that's going to release soon, it may even release this week. I don't know when this is going up.

Peggy Anne Salz: But you're writing it, Craig.

Craig Chapple: Yeah, I know. We've got new monetization descriptors, which go into our game intelligence platforms which is part of our basically kind of our taxonomy. And the report's been put together by my colleague Francisco, and he's found some amazing insights, I think. I find this stuff just fascinating all the time, just games in general, and I guess the drama you can kind of get out of games. But yeah, there are a bunch of findings. So one of the areas we look at are NFT and crypto games. Now, obviously, there are a limited number of those because of the rules of the App Store, and Google Play, and love them or hate them.

But what's interesting in these titles is that currently I have kind of a diverse range of what we call classes, so kind of a level up from genre. So we're talking about mid-core and casual, there's like quite an even split between NFT and crypto games that are mid-core, and casual. So I think from that, my takeaway is that it kind of reflects early experimentation to find like the best audiences for those games, whereas other monetization methods are probably a bit more sewn up in mid-core or casual, right. So like, for example, ad removal, it's a casual monetization method really.

Elsewhere, we analyse the top 10 revenue generating games in the world by monetization type. So the world's top 10 revenue generating mobile titles across App Store and Google Play, all use LiveOps. I mean, it's obvious when you say it, but you know, you can see it. And then meanwhile, half of the world's top 10 use some form of season pass, which has obviously become more and more popular across genres as we kind of look at in the report.

And then gacha, which we know is obviously particularly popular in Asia, has also become more prominent in the U.S. But even more interesting is we found that out of the top 10 gacha games in the U.S. last year, half of them are IP based. So this includes titles like Star Trek Fleet Command, MARVEL, Strike Force, Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes, and Contest of Champions. This is perhaps due to particular IPs having a deep roster, or these particular IPs, yeah, having a deep roster of existing notable characters that can kind of provide a good foundation for success with gacha monetization system. So those are some of the sneak preview and takeaways. You know, we hope to have that released soon.

John Koetsier: Very, very cool. I'm interested in the Web3 and crypto stuff. We won't get into that anymore. But I know that's also super controversial. I know that some development teams have almost revolted against their publishers, and against their companies, their houses, because they don't want to do that. So it's going to be interesting to see what we have heading into 2022 and beyond. We always end here, top three tips. And so we'll ask you from a data perspective, what are your top three tips for mobile gaming marketers in 2022.

Craig Chapple: So, I guess I'm kind of looking at it from content marketing, as opposed to marketing like user acquisition, and all of that. So, but some of my tips, I think, is that when it comes to content marketing, if you're using your data to tell a story, for whatever kind of company you are, let the data or the expertise that you're trying to show, do the talking. So when I used to work as a journalist at "Develop" magazine or "Pocket Gamer," both trade publications, we quite often get sponsored content come in. And honestly, I think the worst thing that you can do, as a marketer, is to talk about yourself. Or put your logo as the image that some people insist. Like, the second you put your logo as the image, no one will read it.

John Koetsier: Yes, click through disappeared.

Craig Chapple: Any story, don’t use a logo. And I think the point is, you should respect people's time, teach them something, and then you'll build the reputation that you're trying to build. And through that expertise, you should be able to gain customers, because they think, okay, these people know what they're talking about and what they've said is useful, and I guess that means their platform, or whatever, is what I'm after. So that's my first tip.

Secondly, is obvious, but I kind of mentioned it earlier, but just keep up with industry news, either again through data company reports, trade websites, again like the games industry, "Pocket Gamer," and play some games. I think it's painfully obvious sometimes in marketing, and something you can even see down to like the terminology that's used in the content, when teams, or the person writing it isn't really aware of what's going on in games, and have just kind of a basic understanding of the market. So I think you benefit a lot just from doing, you know, first, when you log on in the morning, just read the headlines each day. If you get time, I know work takes up all our time, and other things in our lives, but if you can just find some time to play some quick mobile games or something. Just make sure you've got that knowledge, so when you come to write something, it makes sense for the industry that you might be targeting.

And lastly, take a look at a few journalistic skills that you can adapt to your content marketing. I could go down to write basic stuff, even like a news triangle, right. But you know, even in what might be considered as dry B2B content, there's always a way to find like the drama element of fun in it. So journalists are really good at doing that. And if you can use those skills, you can make your content marketing even better.

Peggy Anne Salz: Excellent. And it's not that hard to find headlines that are relevant now, right, because gaming is everywhere. I'm just going to say the word Netflix and leave it with that.

Craig Chapple: I appreciate that.

Peggy Anne Salz: No matter what you're reading, you're reading about games, brands and games. Absolutely. Excellent. Excellent advice.

John Koetsier: Excellent, Craig. Well, thank you so much for taking this time. We really do appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun. We've had two sessions now focused on data and data companies. And I think I've learned something in both of them and not just something, a few something. So do appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Craig Chapple: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Peggy Anne Salz: Thanks so much, Craig. And also for sharing the more granular look at the games. You know, games marketers, if they're looking at it that way: you're getting an idea for product, you're getting an idea for marketing. We understand what flies, what fails. So, thanks again. Really appreciate it.

Craig Chapple: Thank you.

Mar 9, 2022

How to Maximize In-App Ad Revenue

In-app bidding, waterfall, privacy, ATT … maximizing in-app ad monetization has probably never been harder. In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we chat with GSN Games (Scopely) VP of Ad Revenue & Product, Brian Truman about boosting ad monetization and scaling revenue without negatively impacting user experience.

In this episode:

  • ATT and ads: how to still get top dollar
  • Waterfall to in-app bidding: why and how
  • Biggest factors impacting ad monetization performance
  • The massive problem with test culture that no one’s talking about
  • Understanding and segmenting users
  • The biggest mistake apps make in monetization
  • 3 top tips to maximizing ad-based mobile monetization

Hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat with Brian about how he got his start in mobile marketing (by knowing the right Excel shortcuts, of all things), ads that cause app crashes, and how hands-on experience makes a massive difference.

36 min

John Koetsier: How can you maximize ad revenue from your app? Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored. " My name is John Koetsier. My co-host is Peggy Anne Salz. And this is an Origin Stories episode where we go in-depth one-on-one with mobile marketing experts. Our question today, in an age of privacy, and as a ton of mobile ad tech is changing very rapidly indeed, how do you set yourself up for maximum revenue from ads? Peggy, who's our guest?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, John, we have Brian Truman, VP of ad revenue and product at GSN games, recently acquired by Scopely. Brian is, as I said, at GSN games, but before digital marketing, where he's also working in monetization, he dabbled in the movie industry. And thanks…

John Koetsier: Ohhh.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, and I think you can tell by the models, you know.

John Koetsier: A little bit.

Peggy Anne Salz: A little bit, a little bit indeed. Landed a job in a gaming ad network, thanks to his proficiency in Excel keyboard shortcuts. When I think we have to go through those, kind of intrigued.

John Koetsier: Yes.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. He has a decade of experience in digital advertising and he's been entrusted with escalating responsibility and leadership roles at his company, and he finds satisfaction mentoring others and sharing with us, Brian. So welcome.

Brian Truman: Thanks for having me.

John Koetsier: Awesome. We're gonna find out more. What is this Excel shortcuts thing? There's got to be a story here.

Brian Truman: Yeah, there certainly is. So when I was sort of leaving the...decided to leave the film and television industry and I knew that I wanted to go into some part of the digital content business, I was a little unsure exactly what that was going to be. But I went into an interview with a company called CPMStar. They're a startup at Tech Network eventually acquired by GSN games. The founder of that business, as part of the interview process, actually did an Excel test. The reason that an Excel test was actually important is because, as this like bootstrap startup, they actually built a lot of their systems around these massive, complicated Excel sheets.

And so he's like, "You got to know Excel," he puts me in front of a computer, asks me to do all sorts of, like, formulae, pivot tables, etc., and showing my proficiency. And just as I had learnt before through, you know, various other jobs and experience, not using a mouse and just doing it all on keyboard, doing keyboard shortcuts, doing it pretty quickly, he was impressed. And that's what landed me the job. But I otherwise had zero experience that was required for the job.

John Koetsier: It's awesome. It reminds me of being in an audio studio, and you see the audio engineers, and they're just tapping and they're dancing. I mean, the keyboard is their instrument, right? And it's like when you're watching an expert do something, there's something magical about that. So that's how you got your start in mobile ad monetization. It's interesting. GSN games sounds like it was really on the forefront. I mean, imagine that, a gaming company acquiring an ad network.

Brian Truman: Yeah. I mean, that was about 10 years ago or more actually, and we're seeing that a lot happening now. And you're right. I think, at least the idea then...and this was really pre-mobile, they did this to promote Facebook games, which were really hot at the time.

And unfortunately, you know, that business got replaced by mobile very quickly and we just could not make the pivot fast enough, but very common to see today game publishers, you know, buying ad tech companies.

Peggy Anne Salz: And another big story out there is, of course, what's happening. You know, major changes in in-app ad monetization right now, privacy just one word, in-app bidding, and, hey, with some recent, recent changes, maybe even that will be gone. Give us a little bit of your view on that. Let's start with privacy, right? Challenges. What challenges do something like Apple's ATT add to monetization?

Brian Truman: Sure. Look, it's been a big challenge over the last year, and even prior to that as we go back to the CCPA and GDPR and, you know, we have both government regulatory challenges that come about, and I'm sure that there'll be even more of those. We're continuing to see legislation being introduced. But then we have the platform policy changes as well, things that, you know, Apple introduced in the last year and things that will certainly come forward from Google as well. But I'm sure that you've had a lot of marketers on the show and people talk about the challenges that they've faced, you know, as these changes... You know, ad monetization is really the other side of that, right? If marketers are being challenged, if marketers are having a hard time measuring their success or targeting their users, those are definitely going to have a downstream impact on ad monetization. And so the challenge has been, you know, how do we ask our users for permission for data sharing, right? Because there can be some perhaps, you know, captured value if we can get that IDFA using the ATT prompt from Apple. So that was a big part of what we went through, the last year.

Segmentation is becoming more and more important because we have some identifiers for some users and some for others and there's a big disparity in terms of ad value that could be generated from those different users. So not only do you have different waterfalls, for example, for those users, but maybe they have different experiences, right? Because do you show more interstitials to a user who doesn't...or force ads, who doesn't have an identifier when you're trying to generate more revenue? Or do you show less because, or fewer, because they're just not generating as much money from those ad impressions?

So there's a lot of things to think about. Do you have different caps on reward video because the impressions are worth less? But what we see is this disparity between users that have identifiers, whether you're on Android or you actually do get the IDFA permission from a user on iOS, or those who don't. And how you treat those users it is definitely something that has to go into consideration for every ad strategy.

John Koetsier: And it's just going to get harder, right? Because some people get lots of IDFAs, and we've heard up to 60%. In fact, in one recent interview that Peggy and I did, most people are getting more like 20%. And since you need double opt-in on both apps, the advertiser and the publisher app, you know, you're really low. Now we're seeing Google come out with its privacy sandbox. We're actually recording this on February 16th, and Google just announced that. It's going to be a two-year process, but they're explicitly saying that they're building an identifier-free advertising world. So that complexity that you mentioned on iOS, some of that's going to come to Android as well.

Brian Truman: Yeah, yeah, sure. And it's brand new news. I don't want to comment. I haven't even, like, really processed it. But we sort of did expect that Google was going to do something, but hopefully, in a way that is smarter since obviously a big part of their business is, you know, around digital advertising. Apple did not necessarily have that particular conflict. But what we can probably expect of course is to, just as Apple kind of found this way to make these changes and get a benefit for their own digital advertising service through Apple Search, is that Google can think about this also in a way and say, "Okay, look, what changes can we do to push this privacy issue, but also kind of build a larger moat, you know, around our business and find advantage for ourselves?"

So yeah, I think it also...

John Koetsier: Such a conspiracy theorist, I mean, like, really. Why would they do something like that?

Peggy Anne Salz: Did you say moat? I was just thinking. The word moat, I haven't heard that, but when you think about it, it's like, "Whoa. Is that what they're up to?"

Brian Truman: Yeah. I mean, look, I'm very certain... Here's my take, and I don't think I'm being, like, too conspiratorial about it, but Apple very much had a very good reason to do so for marketing purposes alone, right? They can differentiate their platform from Google by pushing this privacy issue. Now, Google may feel pulled by that in order to try to just reach some sort of close level of parity, in terms of marketing and not, you know, sort of lose out to possible customers for devices. But at the same time, you know, I think Google is smart enough to, like, not completely tank their advertising business.

John Koetsier: And that's the key difference, right? I mean, Google is an ad network where Apple owns an ad network, right? So Google is doing this explicitly with the marketing and advertising community and trying to build ways to make sure there's attribution and measurement and targeting options and all those other things that we don't necessarily see to the same degree in SKAdNetwork from Apple.

That said, however, that's a whole big ball of wax. And we'll get into that I'm sure, Peggy, over the next month or two as this is a two-year process that Google is going through. Maybe let's get back on track here, Brian, and just talk about, look, in this world of complexity, how do you counterbalance some of these things and still boost revenue? I mean, many, many apps rely heavily on in-app revenue from ads that, you know, obviously, you're gonna do in-app purchases when you can. But ad revenue is huge. How do you boost that in this complex reality?

Brian Truman: Sure. So I'll say I've been sort of fortunate to work on apps that generate most of their revenue through IAP, so we have, you know, a little bit of a different view. But definitely there's apps out there I'm familiar with that are 100% dependent on ad revenue. And even some apps that I know...I've talked to, you know, people in the industry who have their one major big app is only on iOS. All right, so another advantage we have is maybe, you know, more users on Android. And a lot of what we saw was that we actually increased our revenue because the spend and the benefit goes up to Android, right? So if you were an Android developer and you were...predominantly had users on Android, you might have actually seen increases just because that marketing spend shifted from one platform to the other. So that might have just happened and increased revenue based on, you know, your sort of audience and what devices they use.

Another thing is, because Facebook...obviously, I'll talk about Facebook because they've been in the news a lot recently. They've been highly dependent, of course, on their platform data, using audience network and reaching those users across different publishers and connecting the user identifier with their Facebook profile and doing pretty advanced targeting that really gave them a huge advantage in monetization. And they were certainly a number one must-have partner when you're doing monetization in an app. That's not the case anymore. You know, networks are now behaving much more differently than they did six, nine months ago, and now it's become much more important to actually have this diversity of ad sources or demand partners that you can use kind of smartly targeting but trying to capture as much of the different user segments that I've mentioned earlier to make sure that... You know, some networks are better than others, right? So, you know, brand advertisers sometimes, as long as they're not doing, you know, targeting, don't have the measuring challenges that marketers have for like user acquisition campaigns.

So they just want to make sure they have, you know, viewability, right, using maybe IAB Open Measurement or something like that. And so some networks have a lot more of that brand demand. So now, it's really about trying to get as many sources as possible coming in. Bidding is a part of this too, right? Getting as many people coming into the funnel, buyers, advertisers, when I say people, not players or users, in order to have access to that one ad impression, because there's such disparity between the values of the ad impressions now.

Peggy Anne Salz: Great segue, because we're talking about massive change, you know, Apple, Google. Another wave of massive change, waterfall to in-app bidding. First of all, subtle differences, also different definitions. Walk us through the difference for you.

Brian Truman: Sure, so a lot of this, what I'm talking about, can become moot, you know, when we move into like full bidding platforms, because right now, we're trying a monetization expert, we're trying to manage all of these different types of users, whether we have identifiers, whether they're on iOS, whether, you know, they are a payer, a nonpayer, right? Like, there's all of these different segments advanced publishers are creating that we'll maybe talk a little bit more about. But what that leads to is having all these multiple waterfalls and all these different demand sources and different positions in the waterfall based on network performance. Bidding can actually eliminate the need for a lot of this work. So there's a huge operational effort that goes into monetization right now because of some of these challenges we're talking about. Bidding can be the solution in a lot of ways, because it does...the one thing that I'm trying to do is, you know, get as many networks as possible to see an ad request and get a fair bid against it.

And so, rather than like a traditional waterfall, where you're like going out to one partner, another partner, another partner, another partner, until finally someone bids on it, and you may not be getting the best CPM for that particular impression. So, you know, the bidding for me is really all about sort of improving the efficiency around the operations of ad monetisation.

Peggy Anne Salz: You talked about the opportunity there. You know, you're going to get a fair price, maybe a better CPM than what we're seeing. What's the challenge for app publishers?

Brian Truman: Honestly, I've been pumping bidding for about two years personally, and we're just sort of getting to a tipping point where we can see about 50% of revenue coming from networks that are participating in bidding. But the challenge really has just been the testing and being patient for this technology to catch up with the promise. There's still a lot of networks and partners out there that are still trying to figure it out. Even if they're supporting it, it's still important to test because they still may not be doing it as well as you may be able to do it within the waterfall. And so, you know, there have been experiences where we, "Okay, let's try testing now. Let's go back to the waterfall." But the networks are not quite there yet. And then they'll spend some time working on the technology, which we will test it again, right? And so, that's really been the challenge is like when do you actually flip the switch? When is it working? And that's, you know, been the biggest challenge for us.

John Koetsier: It's pretty funny because that's a huge challenge. That's a huge transition. And now, of course, we've got this Google thing where targeting is going to be in-app. Data is not going to flow out of the app to external sources. If Google gets its way, if this does go forward, privacy sandbox is what I'm talking about, and how that operates, how that changes mediation, how that changes ad networks is going to be super, super interesting. All that's for the future. Here's what I want to ask. What's the one thing that you've done that's made the biggest positive difference in performance and user experience?

Brian Truman: You know, the last year or two what I've seen really successful publishers doing is actually really thinking about a framework for evaluating new ad products, you know, testing, which we'll talk about, and even testing old assumptions, not just new stuff. But, like, because of all these changes, because of user behavior changes throughout the pandemic, because of the increased number of buyers into the market, because of the privacy stuff, we really have been going back through our playbook and retesting everything. I think that that's the most important thing that I see making a difference, you know, today is probably retesting, you know, these sort of old assumptions. A lot of times when we want to do a test we're like, oh, that's positive. And we, you know, move forward and we roll it out to the users. And we did that three years ago, you know, and now, you know, we just keep moving forward looking for new tests, right? Well, it's really become more important to go back and retest some of those old assumptions, as well. That's what I would say is the biggest thing.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's intriguing, John, going forward by looking back and saying, "Oh, it didn't work then, but maybe it does." I'd love to hear an example because I'm trying to just get my head around this. You know, what could it be from the past that we can do better now, or test differently, has different impact in the future? That's fascinating. Like, what, Brian?

Brian Truman: Sure. So for example, different ad formats being used by publishers today, common ones would be like a reward video, also perhaps like an interstitial, whether it's static or video. A big priority, I think, for publishers, game publishers particularly, is building these long-term relationships with the players. And, you know, there are several ways where we could have looked at a test in a short term period, you know, a long time ago, where ad the way, CPMs were lower, and maybe disregarded it, right? So interstitials, for example, is that we would have tested interstitials, bringing them in at a certain point for our user, figuring out what cap is appropriate that does not have a substantial impact on our retention, right? Because these things work in conflict with each other, right? Like, we can add forced ads, but also we're going to increase or decrease retention. Well, that has an impact on our long-term relationship with our players. And so what is the right balance? Well, we've tested that before, and, one, CPMs were lower, let's just say, or higher in the case of iOS. Like, the CPMs have gone all over the place from before.

So when we're thinking about that trade-off of retention for ad revenue, what we decided one year ago or two years ago is certainly not the same thing that we're finding now today.

John Koetsier: I love that, Peggy, because guess what? The world changes. The environment changes. People's familiarity with ads change. How they play games change. So looking at all this stuff makes a ton of sense to me.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, and the trade-off between the retention and the monetization, very, very different. And also what we'll tolerate, you know, in lockdown. I know people are like, "I'll just watch anything. I'll even watch ads. Just anything to brighten up my dreary day.”

Brian Truman: Yeah. And I mean the behaviors...and some of them we still think are new behaviors that aren't going away. But, you know, because of lockdown, because of COVID, game players specifically have developed a lot of new habits over the last, you know, year or two years. Some of them will perhaps fade, some of them are here to stay. And again, I think, you know, ad performance has been very different as well. You know, I might reference this, you know, later, but last year specifically, you know, based on some new marketer reporting, the ad industry in the U.S., the spending of visual advertising revenue increased by 35%. It's astonishing. We've never had that big of an increase for several years. We typically, you know, see 10%, 15% a year. I think they expected 14%, right? It jumped 35%. So, with all of this new money coming into digital advertising, you can't assume that the CPMs and everything, you know, are...and the new behaviors in combination. You can't assume the things that were tested two years ago are the same today.

Peggy Anne Salz: So everything is changing. You know, you're hands-on here. And we love that opportunity, John, because we can talk about best practices, really surface some important points, dig a little deeper. Right? Now, monetization professionals like yourselves, you know, it's a new world, they need new skills, right? They need to maybe understand and segment their users better, other things. What's a good place to start?

Brian Truman: Sure. So depending on the size of the publisher or the data that you have access to, this certainly could vary. But the one thing that probably most publishers will have access to is something like Google Firebase. If you can get this SDK integrated, it will give you a tremendous amount of opportunity to create events around advertising and to be able to track and monitor those events and to be able to do some data mining and surface some opportunities.

The important thing here is to really, really learn about your users. You know, what we're finding, I think, you know...this would have been my, like, second probably big unlock, right, is that it's really important now to not treat every user the same, create new segments. And you can only know that... Like, I can tell you about one particular game, but it's not going to be really transferable, right, because you have to really be able to learn about your own users. The data will tell you that you probably have a few different...three to five different types of behaviors that you can group into different segments, and that, I think, is really, really important to sort of figure out when building an ad monetization strategy. And you will be able to do that using something like Google Firebase.

I'll give you an example. Right? Like, I can look at the average number of impressions of, let's say, a particular format, let's say reward video. And, you know, I can certainly create a goal and say, "Okay, I want to increase from seven to nine." I'm making up these numbers, right, per day, per user, watching this many particular impressions. But that's not really a goal that you can really do and make changes around unless you know your players' behavior and what's going to drive it. But what the data, if you dig in, is going to tell you is that you have four groups of players that watches zero ads, one will watch one ad, one will group will watch five ads, and then another group will watch whatever maximum number you're going to allow them.

So it could be 15. And you know what? If you want to increase the average revenue, or average impressions per day, right, you can increase that cap to 20, and that group will watch 20, and then your overall average increases. But is that the best thing for your ad strategy? It may not be. It may be trying to move the users who want zero to just watch one, or the users who watch one to watch five, right? So, histograms, this is where I get a little bit like statistical heavy, right, is a particular sort of view of data that I use a lot personally so that you can see this distribution, and that will really sort of bring to light some of these types of insights.

John Koetsier: That's super smart. I absolutely love that. And we have a question for you that I actually have some personal recent experience with. We wanted to ask you about ad crashes. And I was recently in my favorite game, and I died, and there was a chance, with a rewarded video, to watch the video and to resurrect magically and continue playing my game. And guess what? The ad just froze. It was a playable actually and it was just like...I was trying to move the crops over to plant so that I could continue going and nothing moved and it didn't change. And I had to force quit the app and lose all my progress. Talk to us about that scenario and what you can do to manage that.

Brian Truman: Yeah, that's terrible. I'm sorry that happened.

John Koetsier: It wasn't in your game.

Brian Truman: Oh, yeah. Just in general, you know, ad crashes, and ad quality in general, has been one of the things that sort of haunt us and it never seems to get any better, maybe it even gets worse, right? But it's always the number one thing whenever you talk to any publisher, anyone who does this who's dealing with ads in a game, it's the number one thing that they always wish, "I wish I had a better way to deal with this." And there have been many attempts, but because all the networks and demand sources are so decentralized and there's so many different formats and creative types, there's no standardization really across sites, it's's a really, really difficult problem to solve.

So here's what we can do, right? By the way, I should add, one more thing is like...any game team or studio or app that begins to see an increase in spikes than they have ads in the game, they immediately assume it's always ads, and usually they're going to be right. But it's's so bad they always assume it's ads. And I get these messages that say like, "Okay, we got crashes. It's probably you. Will you look at it?"

So crashes come across, you know, my desk a lot. And so I'll talk about one of the really, really important skills that other people can learn is using some sort of like web proxy debugger. We use Charles, we use others. But using something like this will allow you...if you can reproduce the crash, you can capture and log that internet traffic data and go back to the source and let them know, "Hey, here's the ad. Here's the data I have on it. It's causing a crash." If it's a specific ad and they can resolve it.

So that's one thing that you can do. It's usually pretty labor-intensive, and having some really great QA sources on your team to be able to do this, really, really helpful. But you also want to create some sort of monitoring system. Maybe you're using, you know, Crashlytics or something that you can actually monitor on a regular basis and try to get out in front of some of this stuff. I wish there was a better solution. Obviously, it is always going to be the number one thing for publishers to complain about. But the last thing I could probably think about is just, you know, choosing partners that you have trust and stability and that are constantly, you know, putting out, you know, really high-end, high-quality, like, SDK updates and not bug-filled SDK updates.

And so what you'll find is, as you work with different partners, there are some that are better than others. But you have to be sort of selective of who you work with, and building that relationship with those third-party vendors is certainly, you know, an important part of it.

John Koetsier: Cool.

Peggy Anne Salz: Cool. I like this. We're learning, you know, the holistic approach here, the different types of skills, you know, look for what is crashing. You've obviously had a few marketing nightmares in your life, Brian, is what it sounds like to me. So you've been there, done that. You are definitely seasoned. What do you know now today that wish, if you could, you could tell your younger self?

Brian Truman: So I've worked, you know, at the network. I've worked at a publisher. I've always worked pretty much on the monetization side. I've never really worked directly on the marketer site like many of your guests, you know, have all this tremendous marketing experience in user acquisition and things like that. And I really wish I probably would have done more, or I would have learnt more about it earlier. Now I actually get a lot more exposure to it. But early on, I just didn't.

Peggy Anne Salz: But you knew the keyboard shortcuts. So that's...

Brian Truman: Yeah, I did know that. I knew Excel. I just never had run a Facebook campaign before. So, you know, the idea, and it's really interesting now, and this is why I'm interested in it because all of these measurement techniques and the challenges introduced by proxy changes and other things are shifting. But what I've learnt is, as an ad monetization expert even, I really have to think about what the marketer wants, right? Like, yes, we think about what, you know, our players' experience is like, but if I'm trying to differentiate what is ultimately a commodity, right? Ad impressions across the digital ecosystem are commoditized, essentially. If I'm trying to differentiate that, I really, really have to know what the marketer is looking for, how they're going to measure it, how they're targeting for it, what they're looking for in terms of ad quality, right? That helps me sort of provide some viewpoint around our ad strategy around where is the best place to put an ad, right.

For example, John, you mentioned you were watching that ad as you were, you know, trying to, you know, sort of get a new life, you know, after dying, right? Well, even if it didn't crash, what's the likelihood that you would have engaged in that ad when you really just want to get back to the game, right? Like, that's not, in my opinion, a really high-quality advertising placement for that marketer. Like, the marketer doesn't want someone who's just trying to get an ad view and then go back to their game. They want you to engage with the ad. For example, an interstitial ad even, like, is it better to show it in the very first minute after someone's opened the app? Or do you want to show it maybe toward the end of their session, 10 minutes in, because they're more likely to engage with that ad at that time?

Peggy Anne Salz: So we hear about your experience. Quick, one word, one sentence advice. What's the biggest or most common mistake you see others making in mobile monetization? What's your advice to solve that?

Brian Truman: So, I'll try to fit two things and I'll make them brief. But one is they do a lot of testing, and I think a lot of testing... We hear about testing a lot, testing, testing. But thinking about, like, a framework around testing and what you're really trying to accomplish. . . I kind of referenced some of these things earlier, I think sometimes can be misguided. And also just not enough time and understanding statistical significance and confidence and things like that, right? So I always hear these durations of like, "Oh, we need to run this test for one week." Well, that doesn't mean anything depending on how much revenue or impressions, you know, you're getting, right? If it's a small number, like we need to run it for a longer period of time, right? And there's this idea that it's duration time-based as opposed to volume-based when you do testing.

So that's one thing that I often see as being a mistake. And networks, for example, can do all sorts of things to fluctuate in tests, right? I'll give you a little tip because I used to run, you know, an ad network, is that whenever we want somebody, a publisher, to test something new, we have toggles, you know, that we can...on our control board, you know, give them a boost in revenue share. That's gonna make the test look really great. And then once they're committed to that change, we're just going to dial it back down, right? So long-term testing is, like, really, really important in my opinion. When we run tests, I don't try to do daily or weekly tests that, like, are going to pump revenue for a short period of time, I focused on tests that are going to have long-term impact that I run for three months, sometimes with a whole back group for six months for a percentage of users.

So yeah, I'll kind of leave it at that. But that's what I think thinking about the way you do testing is really important.

John Koetsier: I really love that, because if you really dig into testing... And let me tell you, we interview a lot of mobile marketers, and test, test, test, test, test is always the easy answer, right? Yeah, "Test it, test it." Well, if you really dig into it and you look at the numbers, so many tests don't meet the standards for statistical reliability. They just don't. And so you're cloaking kind of what you want to do in terms of, "Well, that's what the data says," or you're kind of just surrendering your power as a marketer to, "You know what? I think this will work and I'm going to go for it," and just saying, "Oh, what will the data show?" So that's a great, great tip.

Now, we want to end here. We always ask for three tips from our guests. What are your top three tips to maximize mobile ad monetization without distracting from the experience and just losing all your users?

Brian Truman: Sure. So look, as someone who's worked predominantly on apps that are IAP-driven, or balancing ad revenue and retention, you know, with that goal in mind. Reward videos, obviously, are value exchange that a lot of users like, that we find a lot of value and increasing retention and doing it in a way that does not cannibalize, you know, IAP either. And so I personally spend a lot of time thinking about new ways that reward video can be incorporated doesn't even have to be games, I think, in all kinds of, you know, applications. And users tell us that that's something that they really actually quite appreciate. And it's not distracting as long as it doesn't crash.

So crashes would be the other thing, right, which is, like, you know, being able to come up with some way that you can either monitor and then, ultimately, sort of, you know, deal with those quickly, or even just avoid them, you know, altogether. I think crashes are something that, frankly, I see a lot of publishers don't even deal with, right? I think there's just so many of them that they don't even have a good way to know it was happening. They wouldn't know this is happening because they're not, you know, watching for this. And ads certainly, you know, do carry that risk.

And so I suppose that would probably be number two in terms of creating a distracting experience is making sure you have a good way to deal with that. And this is a complaint we see a lot actually is just seeing the same ad over and over again. Now, most people will tell you, "Well, that's fine because that's who's spending a lot of money and that's just generating a lot more money." And that may or may not be the case. But as far as, like, creating a distracting experience, it's interesting what a diverse group of ads will do for a person. I think we've all done this, even if you're watching Hulu or television, if you see the same ad over and over, like, you really start to notice that ad and not in a good way.

And so diverse demand, lots of demand sources, but also maybe even putting caps on those networks so they don't necessarily have access to show that same, you know, big buyer over and over again.

John Koetsier: Smart, smart. I start to hate brands when I see their ads too much, so not a good plan.

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, this has been an amazing show, John. I mean, we have good shows, but to go into so much depth, so much detail, come away with so many learnings that you're saying like, "Yeah, Monday morning, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna start to monitor if something crashes." Isn't that a novel idea? You know. I really, really thought this was...this is one of our shows, John. It's one to bookmark. That's what it is. It's a keeper.

John Koetsier: I think that's absolutely true. I think that's absolutely true.

Peggy Anne Salz: It's a keeper.

John Koetsier: Brian, great job, great insights. Really do appreciate your time. Also, love your background, you know, got to admit that. Is that a X Wing or is it a TIE fighter in the background? I don't know, it's some sort of spacecraft.

Brian Truman: There's a little TIE fighter.

John Koetsier: Okay, there you go. Yeah, X Wing, obviously. Not an X. So there we go. Tie Fighter would be the solution. Brian, thank you so much for your time. It has been a lot of fun listening to you expound on both sides of ads, buying them, selling them, monetizing with them, all that stuff. For everybody else who's watching, hey, if you want to be on the show, let us know. If you're a mobile expert and you've got great insights, like Brian or maybe even just half as much as Brian, we'd like to chat with you. And enjoy the show.

Mar 2, 2022

How Dating Apps Win (And When They’re Busiest)

Dating apps are huge. 40% of couples are now finding each other via digital dating services, and dating apps are forecast to be an $8.4 billion opportunity by 2024.

But how do you beat the competition?

First of all, by defining your niche like, perhaps, the Thursday dating app … which only works on Thursdays. Or the dating app that’s only for people with beards. Or another only for music lovers.

But most importantly, you have to understand your users and locale. In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we chat with James Haslam and Mikael Orpana, who have analyzed the top dating apps, millions of installs, and billions of ad impressions to identify what works well and how the top apps win.

23 min

James Haslam: …there’s a real proliferation of dating apps of really various kinds. We’ve got POM, which is for music lovers, Thursday is an app that only works on Thursdays, Raya is an exclusive dating app for people with large Instagram followings. And there’s even Bristlr, which is an app if you like beards. So, there’s a very different amount of variety at the moment.

John Koetsier: Is love in the air, as the old song goes, or is it in the app? 40% of couples now find each other via digital dating services. It’s not the singles bar anymore, it’s not the friends of friends, it’s not the other traditional ways. Today, that means dating apps, and that’s an $8.5 billion opportunity by 2024.

Welcome to “Mobile Heroes Uncensored.” Today we’re doing a deep dive into dating data, how to win in dating apps. My name is John Koetsier, and my co-host, of course, is Peggy Anne Salz. Peggy, who are we chatting with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Thanks, John. And it is true, we’re doing this, and timing’s great, right, because we are around that period, spring is in the air, love is in the air, Valentine’s Day just passed…

John Koetsier: Well, we’re late. We’re late. We should have done this a month ago, and given people all kinds of info. Valentine’s is over, we had a horrible day, we were crying, you know, alone, all the…no, I’m just joking. But you know, hey…

Peggy Anne Salz: I got a present. I don’t know about you, but…

John Koetsier: I got chocolates.

Peggy Anne Salz: There you go, John. I can see it. No, what we did was we gave everyone a chance to digest this amazing data report. And it takes a while, so we gave them that chance, now we’re going to look at it, right? And we have two people, the authors of this report to tell us about it. So, we have James Haslam, he is senior marketing insights manager at Liftoff + Vungle. He’s, of course, an analyst, but he’s also had six years of experience in mobile ad tech, and prior to that he was working over at MMP Adjust. He lives in Berlin. I know him really well, I’ve collaborated with him as well, so welcome, James.

James Haslam: Cool. Thank you for having me.

Peggy Anne Salz: And I said it was a duo, right? We have Mikael Orpana, senior marketing manager at Liftoff + Vungle. In addition to that, he also leads marketing for insights, for GameRefinery and the publisher Self-Serve. And before that, Mikael built GameRefinery’s marketing up from the ground up to what we see today, and in his spare time, Mikael is into gaming and crypto. Welcome, Mikael.

Mikael Orpana: Thanks. Great to be here.

John Koetsier: Super happy to have you both here. Maybe let’s start here. There’s a lot to look at in dating, there’s so much that we’re going to get into, what’s converting, what’s working, what are the costs, are there platform differences, all that stuff. Maybe let’s start here, who are the top players? Is it all the names that we’ve always heard, or are there some newcomers here as well?

James Haslam: So, I mean, Tinder is pretty much synonymous with dating apps right now, and of course, there’s Bumble, you’ve heard of Plenty of Fish, which is a bit older, and then for the German audience, of course, there’s LOVOO. But these apps have been around for a very, very long time. Tinder launched in 2012, Bumble 2014, and since that time, like, tons has changed. In fact, there’s a real proliferation of dating apps of, like, really various kinds. We’ve got POM, which is for music lovers, Thursday is an app that only works on Thursdays, Raya is an exclusive dating app for people with large Instagram followings. And there’s even Bristlr, which is an app if you like beards. So, there’s a very different amount of variety at the moment. And these are just the ones known in the UK. We also, I mean…yeah.

John Koetsier: Wow. Well, a dating app you can only use on Thursday, that’s a new one to me, Peggy.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, I mean, you know, if it’s crowding, you have to stand out, right? And these are some cool ones. I hadn’t heard about them at all. But you can imagine that they’re not just about dating, they’re probably just about meeting people. I mean, we’re in lockdown, it’s just, Thursdays, I’m bored, let’s do it. Let’s talk, let’s connect.

James Haslam: Yeah, and in fact, dating apps have become so popular in terms of how many people are submitting them to the app stores, that Apple recently had to update their guidelines just to avoid the amount of dating apps, and just temper the influx. So now, apps have to be a unique proposition, hence why we’ve got all these kinds of interesting, different variety of unique propositions, as it were.

John Koetsier: Wow, I’m gonna start one that’s only Mondays, one that’s only Fridays…unique!

Peggy Anne Salz: Indeed. So, we’re looking at a number of apps, but they all have something in common, and that’s, you know, the cost, the cost to acquire a user, even if they’re only going to use it on a Thursday. What are we looking at in dating, how are they trending up or down? James and Mikael as well.

Mikael Orpana: Yeah, so I think, you know, overall, costs are a bit on the rise. If we look at the average cost for the year, it was a little over $2.50 globally, but you know, by the time we got into, you know, October, we’re looking at, you know, over $4.50, and that’s a double year-on-year. So, we’re on a clear trend that it is…or UA costs are increasing.

John Koetsier: And I’m guessing that differs significantly by region, correct?

James Haslam: Yeah, just with regards to UA, it costs a little less to get European users on board, but it is significantly more costly to get them to make a purchase. There could be, you know, a multitude of reasons why that might be, but it just seems that European users are a bit tighter in the purse strings. In North America, it’s much the opposite, so American and Canadian users are five times more likely to make a purchase as those European users. In APAC it’s sort of in the middle. They have a high conversion or a high cost of registration, so it costs much more for them to actually get on the app, but that might be because a lot of apps in, particularly, Japan make their male users pay up front. So, that might just drive up the cost to convert. Again, one of many factors. But over in Japan, the registration cost is about $15.

John Koetsier: Wow. So, that’s a good segue because we wanted to also not just talk about acquisition, but retention, and that is about converting people who just install the app into a registered user or a subscriber. How difficult is that, and what kind of costs are we looking at there?

James Haslam: It really depends on the model, when it comes to converting a user onto an app. As I’ve kind of stated, if you’re putting a paywall up in front of a user before they’ve even had a chance to use it, that will drive up costs quite significantly. Users also have to do a ton. It’s not like getting a hyper casual game, where you’re pretty much into the action as soon as you’ve downloaded the app, you have to make a profile, you have to accept terms, in some cases, you actually have to upload driver’s license or ID. All of these things create issues for the user, whether they want to download something or not. So, that all makes it much less likely for users to convert than they might, and that’s why we see a conversion rate of about 50% between the install and the registration.

John Koetsier: Do you see significant differences between iOS and Android here?

James Haslam: We do, actually, and it was a bit of a surprise, what we found out. Android installs cost less, that much we would expect, but and, we also see the iOS users register a bit higher, about two times as much as Android, so they are certainly, like, better quality looking users. But the surprise is that it costs more to convert an Android user, where we would expect it to normally cost a little less. That’s probably to do with app makeup, but it’s certainly interesting, as we would always expect Android costs to be slightly lower.

John Koetsier: Interesting.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, we’ve got the differences in platforms, there’s also seasonal differences, and maybe there’s times when you can get one or the other, I’m not sure. But we just had Valentine’s Day, that’s the best time probably, I’m assuming. Maybe not. Maybe it’s too loud, and it’s not the best time to be marketing a dating app. What are some of the seasonal trends you’re seeing, or is it just, like, love is universal, every month we’re interested in it?

Mikael Orpana: Well, I think maybe the difference is that, you know, when and how are people looking for love? And I think it’s…of course you have Valentine’s Day, and seasonality in that sense, but you can also think about it in terms of, for example, time of the year. So during the summer months, people are going out a lot more, looking for love perhaps the old fashioned way, but then again, you know, you’re getting into colder winter months, people are at home, especially the past few years during quarantine, you’re spending a lot more time on your phone, and trying to find love that way. So, I think, you know, maybe a different type of seasonality there.

John Koetsier: That’s super interesting…

Peggy Anne Salz: And recommendations? Oh, go ahead, John.

John Koetsier: Sorry. Go ahead, Peggy. You go ahead.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was going to say, any recommendations based on that? Because, you know, you’ve been doing dating apps for a while, I’ve read the other ones, you’ve done one dating app that was really just a really cool infographic, it was all there in one place. Any seasonal trends where you can say, you know, this is the season to focus on, or this is a better time to market?

James Haslam: I mean, so on a weekly basis, we always see that usage spikes on Sunday. That’s pretty much across the board when most people are accessing apps throughout the day. But on a yearly basis, really September, October. As it’s known in Germany, Peggy, cuffing season is very popular, and that seems to be the time when people are most likely to try apps out. And certainly, yeah, up right until Christmas, and then usage kind of slows down. So I think for a lot of app marketers, probably the best time to produce seasonal offers is around September or October. If you really want to get people who are just actually using the app for the first time, or just know that this is the season to be searching, it’s probably the best time.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, right after that vacation relationship hit the skids, it’s time to get into the dating app in September. All right.

James Haslam: Right.

John Koetsier: I was thinking it’s a little tough on the Thursday app if, you know, the busiest time is Sunday. It’s like…

James Haslam: Right.

John Koetsier: …well, it sucks to be me, I mean… But I’m guessing there’s a niche. I’m guessing there’s a niche, there always is. We’re talking about a lot of differences, platform, time, region, all that stuff, what about targeting men versus targeting women? Do you see significant differences there?

Mikael Orpana: Well, you know, it of course, varies by region, and your app is, you know, seeing more men versus women, which is quite common. In these cases, I think in terms of targeting your campaign optimizations, what you can do is, for example, like if you’re trying to grow your female audience, you’re focusing on top of funnel UA metrics, whereas if you’re… And in that case, on the male side, you would be looking more at bottom funnel campaign metrics, like Row S, for example. But I think it might also then differ in terms of the creatives you’re using. So if you’re, of course, you know, trying to grow a male audience, then you would be focusing more on creatives that feature, or are predominantly featuring women, and then vice versa. But it might also then, of course, something that we see in apps, is that there might also be differences in terms of perks that you offer. So if you’re trying to grow up female audience, they might get some free perks, whereas male registrants won’t see the same benefits.

John Koetsier: Right.

Peggy Anne Salz: I have to interject, John, because obviously, I’m not in dating apps, and they’ve changed since I might have been checking them out, but what are these perks and purchases? I mean, what is it that I’m buying into now in a dating app? And is there any way to differentiate there, that you’ve seen very interesting? I remember it was, you know, a lot of gifting, and I remember even you could, you know, give someone a six-pack, for example, and flowers, and this goes back a ways. And they there were apps that did this, John, and I’m sure we’re past that.

John Koetsier: A six-pack. A six-pack.

Peggy Anne Salz: A six-pack, not as in…seriously, that was a big deal. A virtual…

John Koetsier: Is that, like, a fitness subscription, or something like that, to get a six pack, or is that like the six-pack that you, you know, stomp on, jump on the table…?

Peggy Anne Salz: These were valuable gifts, and they were paid with virtual currency. It was a big deal. But what are they like now, and how are you seeing maybe some apps differentiate, or how they market them?

James Haslam: It’s a bit of a smorgasbord, but there are kind of trends. They all have different names, but they all generally do the same thing. You’ll get some in-app purchases where you’re just trying to get someone’s attention, so you send…in Tinder terms, that’s a super like, but you’re basically getting your profile to the top of someone else, so that they can see you. And that’s if you really like someone. You also have subscription tiers. So, they’ll have features…and I’ll go back to Tinder again, you can see who likes you, so that cuts out a lot of nonsense, where you can just, you know, swipe through people that have already indicated interest, and then there’s also unlockables, such as being able to choose your location, so you can send yourself out, anywhere around the world. If you’re a frequent traveler, post pandemic, hopefully, then you might use that app in advance of going somewhere. So, there’s perks like that that are either one-offs, or part of the subscription package.

John Koetsier: So, let’s jump back on the acquisition side of things. Obviously, we have, if we’re a dating marketer, the full suite of types of ads at our disposal to acquire new users. What’s working best, and how do you make sure your ad, and all the elements of it stand out?

James Haslam: Oh, do I have an answer for you, John.

John Koetsier: I hope so.

James Haslam: Yeah, this is a bit of a long one, so feel free to interject and break me up. But in one of our “Mobile Heroes” interviews, Takahiro Motegi, a CMO of Diverse, which is a Japanese dating app, he says the truth is most ad creatives for dating apps look the same, which isn’t exactly the most resounding or most confident note to start on, but there are things that can make your app stand out, as long as the execution is tip top. I’ve spoken to a few people on our creative team, and some of the ideas that they’ve shared are things like banners, which probably have the largest share of ad spend, like, you know, that our machine learning figures out, and they tend to be chat banners. So you’ll see an image, scrolling text, hey, how are you? Let’s meet, let’s chat, and those are highly effective, and probably, most major dating apps will utilise them. One test that we did, versus…so, that sort of chat banner performs 60% better in terms of installs than any other logo, or any other type of banner that they’ve produced so far. So, we know those are highly effective.

But in terms of other formats, such as interstitials, we have three tips, right, I’ll just quickly run through. Because they’re much larger, you can actually fit a whole message pipeline down, so you can really tailor what it is you want your potential users to see, or potential users, like what they would say. So, you’re suggested to model your conversation as closely to what you would expect to see in a dating app, rather than something much more ridiculous, that people may not find authentic. Photos is obviously the most important part of these apps, you obviously don’t want to just put loads of models in your pictures, because people may just think, again, this isn’t authentic, this isn’t going to find me, you know, the person that I’m looking for. So, try to find the right pictures of people that may actually be using your app in real time. And then a fun tip is if you may want to make your app seem more local, put a map, and put pin drops in. This will just suggest that, okay, you can actually find people in your local area. Again, just a simple tip on that side.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, those are the way that you get my attention, right, and that’s important. But you also want to turn these potential daters in app, you want to convert them into paying user subscribers. What works best, what are you seeing?

James Haslam: I could go back to another Mobile Hero, this time Zhi Wei Neo of Tinder, who said that you need to have a strong alignment among creatives, app store pages, onboarding process, the UX, the UI, and of course, CRM. While the first impression is really what counts, making that impression consistent throughout your app journey, just make sure that people understand what is on offer, and feel confident enough to make a purchase. It’s not good enough just to have different various things with different tones of voice appearing in front of the user to confuse them. So essentially, one is a good dating app experience, I think that’s what will keep people coming back. And then also making sure that you hit people with the right offer at the right time, as we would always say.

John Koetsier: James, I actually love that answer because what you said at the top there was making sure it’s clear what is on offer, what people can get, and how to get it. That rings true with me not because I’m in dating apps, but because in my favorite mobile game, I keep getting sold something that I don’t know what it’s for. It’s some sort of advantage in the game, but I wouldn’t know where to use it, or how to use it. So, you know, you can sell it to me as much as you want, but if I don’t know what it’s for, or how to use it or how it advantages me in any way, I’m not going to buy. So, clarity really, really matters.

Cool. We’re going to end here, and we always ask people this, and it’s always interesting to see what people have to say. We’re going to ask each of you in turn what are your top three tips for mobile marketers in the dating app vertical are, heading into 2022. Mikael, I think we’ll start with you, and then we’ll go with James, your top three tips for mobile marketers.

Mikael Orpana: Well, I think my number one tip would be localization, because I think it’s important to, especially nowadays, if we look at how competitive the dating app market is, that you’re actually tapping into those local leads. Because there’s a lot of variation between markets, what people are looking for, what people are expecting, sort of to James’s earlier point, and that you’re tapping into that need. And that’s also why some of the new apps that we’re seeing, and some of the ones that James mentioned earlier on, why they’re seeing success is that they’re sort of tapping more into that, you know, local environment, and for example, what people want from a dating app in the city is not necessarily the same thing as what you’ll want from a dating app in, for example, a more rural area. Yes, and I think another thing is safety. So, if anybody’s watched “The Tinder Swindler” recently, it’s that, you know, of course, while a lot of people are looking for love, and that’s, you know, the main reason people use it, there are also, you know, people out there who are using dating apps for more nefarious purposes. And I think that’s where it’s important to balance safety between actually now providing that experience so that people can then actually truly find love, and not just believe they are, and then, for example, that example, getting swindled. And then…

John Koetsier: Yes. Or worse.

Mikael Orpana: Or worse, exactly, you know? Which, you know, we definitely…nobody wants that. And I think the third one is that if we think about the past few years, we’ve all been in quarantine, we’ve been sitting at home, I think, you know, a lot of people are looking for that right person more than ever, but at the same time, you have this enormous amount of apps, and it may be hard to distinguish which one is the right for you, and that, you know, authentic experience is that you make your marketing more authentic by, for example, hosting local events. And then that can also be leveraged for content ads and so forth in a more authentic manner than just what I think is what typically the experience may be, that it’s sort of this stock image library that people are running.

John Koetsier: Very cool. Very cool, Mikael, thank you. That’s great. James, did he leave anything for you? Is there anything else? Do you have an additional tip, or did he just steal all the good one?

James Haslam: I mean, I would like to build on what Mikael sayid, especially around localization. I mean, Peggy, I think we’ve talked about localization in every report we’ve ever collaborated on, so it’s definitely a lesson I know very well. But there’s a lot of nuances. It’s not even just translations, as I think many of us know, but even, and I hate to say it, John and Peggy, but some apps just might be too American for a European audience. And messaging like that, that may work in one very specific scenario, may just totally die out when it reaches a new market. But then, even extending on to that, it becomes something about customs. I mean, matchmaking is a super sensitive topic, especially in more conservative regions, but still worth the, I think, time to kind of break through, and provide people with these, like, important services. So essentially, for UA to work for a lot of these companies it’s heavily investing in localization, and working with people on the ground to make sure that their app isn’t turning people off. I think that’s pretty key.

And yes, to build on Mikael’s third point, certainly, we’ll see more and more companies doing events, because as he’s mentioned, we’ve spent two years being told to stand two meters apart, maybe now it’s time that we try and bring people together. And that just means that while not strictly UA, it will certainly mean more of a push to getting people together at events. And that’s part of your guys’ favorite dating app, Thursday, that’s part of their strategy, they specifically do events on Thursdays now, just to bring people together.

Peggy Anne Salz: Don’t tell me…I was just going to say, you meet on a Thursday. I was going to say, brainstorm here.

James Haslam: Yeah, go on.

John Koetsier: And you know, if you find somebody you like, then you meet on the Friday. I mean, it’s perfect, right? Wow. Nice.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Cool.

John Koetsier: Well, that is awesome, James, that is awesome, Mikael. Thank you so much. We do appreciate all the insight that you had to offer. If you’re listening to the audio podcast, check out the YouTube because we’ll be showing snippets of the report, and other things that James and Mikael have created. Isn’t that correct, Peggy?

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. And as usual, you know, it’s just great to have you put some context to the data, and not just the numbers, but some explanation, something that marketers can really benefit from, can learn from. Thanks for sharing. You’ve been on our show, that shows that we shine a light on the best and coolest marketers, or people who know about the market. And hey, if you’re listening in and you think you have these superpowers, you want to be a mobile hero, check out the page over at Liftoff, or just ping us, John, on LinkedIn and Twitter, that’s where we are, right? And we’ll set you up with your own show.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Peggy. Thanks, James. Thanks, Mikael. It was a real pleasure.

James Haslam: Cool. Yeah, and thank you very much for having us.

Mikael Orpana: Thanks.

Feb 23, 2022

How To Boost Sales in Your Mobile App

You gotta do your data homework, you have to look under the hood of all those fancy shiny marketing platforms, and you have to find channels that your competitors overlook.

Those are just a few of the massive number of tips and insights for increasing sales in your retail app from Nico Winkelhaus, the Director of Digital Marketing at PAYBACK, Germany’s top loyalty program. (Little secret here: they see literally 5% of the entire nation’s commerce. Insane!)

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, hosts Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier chat with Nico about achieving sustained growth, learning from gaming apps, beating nightmare competitors, and evolving through changes in consumer behavior due to Covid.

Plus, we also chat about weaving service through web and mobile app channels, and Nico’s unconventional advice about why you should grow your app at the expense of other channels.

25 min

Nico Winkelhaus: …especially the app gaming industry and the dating industry is always, I think, two or five years ahead with all their marketing expertise.

John Koetsier: What is the key to sustained growth in retail apps? And what can gaming teach you about marketing success? Welcome to “Mobile Heroes Origin Stories” where we go in-depth one-on-one with mobile marketing experts. My name is John Koetsier. My co-host, of course, is Peggy Anne Salz. And retail is one of the toughest app verticals to make it. And we know that. We see that. There's huge competitors, massive competitors. I mean, have you heard of Amazon? You know, massive. And also, there's big, established bricks-and-mortar retailers. Today we're going to find out how to win. Peggy, who are we chatting with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, John, we've got a very good guest today because his app is the number-three shopping app in Germany. So you're here at the source. Our guest is Nico Winkelhaus. He is director of digital marketing at Payback. Payback, as I said, major shopping app. He's responsible for a unit of 50 employees, all laser-focused on efforts to grow and monetize Payback's digital reach. Before Payback, Nico worked for 10 years in digital departments at media companies and in broadcasting groups like Condé Nast and ProSieben, which is a local television station in Germany. So he's seen it from both sides, and he's going to tell us about it. Welcome, Nico. Great to have you.

Nico Winkelhaus: Thank you. Thank you for having me on your podcast.

Peggy Anne Salz: Great to have you.

John Koetsier: Super pumped to have you. This is awesome. And thank you, Peggy, for saying the German words because, I mean, like, you live there now, even though you're an American, so you know how to say them. That's awesome. Nico, maybe let’s start here, because we talk to a lot of people in North America, Europe, but beyond, as well, India, Asia, South America, big audience outside of those traditional North America and Europe areas. What is Payback? What do you do?

Nico Winkelhaus: Payback is Germany's largest loyalty program. It's a leading bonus program with more than 30 million customers. It's around 20 years old, and in the earlier years, it was a print coupon and a plastic loyalty card program, third place in German wallets. And now it's the top three shopping app after our digitalization of the program.

And the nice thing with Payback is you can earn points at more than 40 brick-and-mortar stores and more than 600 online shops, and you can also redeem your points there. So it's a very easy-to-use loyalty program where you earn points on different locations. It's much more convenient and much more relevant for the user than collecting, let's say, one loyalty card for this shop, one for this shop, one for this shop. So it's a multi-partner loyalty program.

John Koetsier: I like that for two reasons, Peggy, because, first of all, I’m not carrying your card in my wallet. I’m sorry, I’m just not doing that. And you know what? I don't want to be in your stupid club anyway. So, if there's one that's for all of them, great. But here's the other thing that's really interesting about that, Peggy. We are typically talking to tech startups. We're talking to companies that are born mobile, that are just growing. We don't often talk to people who made a massive digital transformation, were leaders pre-digital perhaps, and now are leaders again in digital. That's interesting.

Nico Winkelhaus: Yeah. I think we were born data-driven, because from day one, we were collecting data and using that data for our offering. So, at the end of the day, we are a data-driven company with all of our transaction data, but in a very print and plastic card-orientated way. And now we transformed it to the mobile world.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, we do want to talk about your evolution. That's a big part of this. But there's also your personal growth and evolution, Nico. So, I’m just going to take a step back. You are in marketing. How did you get there? Because you also have a long track record, passionate, big gaming guy. And you founded one of the first online gaming magazines in Germany. And check this out, John, when he was 15.

John Koetsier: Nice.

Nico Winkelhaus: Yeah. But that wasn't, kind of, let's say, business sense. The reason was that was the era or the age when the internet was something for freaks. So it wasn't relevant for the girls in my class that I have an email address. But I was a passionate gamer.

And the reason for that to start a kind of online gaming magazine is to get the review games for free. So I got the game for free, didn't have to buy it, and write about it, and then put it online. And afterwards, we also gained some advertising dollars. So it was more make your passion more and more convenient and not so much from a business point of view. But it worked out very well because we grew a little bit and then it was good to get paid for playing PC games.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. Freebies and swag are always good, Nico. We know that as journalists. But, no, what started you into marketing? Because, again, that was your move, and you went from digital and broadcast to where you are here. Tell us about that journey.

Nico Winkelhaus: Yeah. So, if you are 15, or 17, or 18, getting paid for playing games is the best job in the world, or the best job next to high school in the world. But with 25 or so, it's not that relevant. You get more interest in other stuff. So, I decided to switch from the pure gaming area to a more broader media company. So I switched to ProSiebenSat.1 Global Broadcasting Corporate Group. And there, I was in the digital department to learn more business models, more channels like TV, like mobile and so on. So that was the reason why I wasn't that passionate in games than I was before.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, a quick follow-up there about marketers and gaming marketers. So you were in gaming. There are different skills there. What can marketers learn from gaming when it comes to acquiring and engaging audiences?

Nico Winkelhaus: Especially the app gaming industry and the dating industry is always, I think, two or five years ahead with all their marketing expertise. For example, if you look at the stages of a convergent funnel, which is tracked and optimized in a gaming app, compared to, let's say, a non-gaming app, then the non-gaming app normally has, let's say, the install, the registration, and the purchase. And these three touch points are tracked, hopefully, and optimized, and retargeted, and so on. And that's it, more or less.

In the gaming area, then you have a larger funnel from day one, the app install, the registration, the content layer, tutorial completed, level one completed, whatever. And they all use that data to re-engage the user, to predict customer lifetime values, and so on. So this is a mythology which is not gaming exclusively, but it's mainly used in that industry.

So, I think this is one of the examples one can learn from gaming, and especially the use of creatives in an intense way. So, not to produce two or three creatives for your mobile campaign, but to use tons, and to change it every day is also, I think, a characteristic of the app gaming industry.

John Koetsier: It's one of the reasons why Peggy and I have seen so many gaming marketers, mobile gaming marketers be poached, be recruited by big brands, by other verticals, because they're amazing. They're tops. I mean, it's a very challenging vertical. I want to switch a little bit to the broader business environment. We've obviously had a kind of crazy last two years, and that's been really good for some verticals. That's been really good for mobile gaming, right? As awful as that is to say. It's also been very good for retail apps. How has your business evolved over the last two years with COVID? How have things changed?

Nico Winkelhaus: One of the good things about Payback is we have around 5% of all commerce transactions, regardless if it's brick-and-mortar or e-commerce, is incentivized by the Payback app. So we have a very good view on the transactional behavior of Germans. So, what we also saw is funny things like…I don't know if you have that on a global scale, but Germans were rushing for toilet paper. So we see…

John Koetsier: We had that, too. I had no idea why. Insanity.

So, yeah, we have the data, but we can't explain it. So, although we have the data, still, of course, you see that in the numbers. And, of course, in the short-term, food care was important, beauty products weren't important. Fashion was down. Of course, travel was down. So, we saw that in the numbers, also. But what is now quite interesting is, of course, there's an acceleration, or an accelerated shift to e-commerce, but still we see a little bit of different behavior in the brick-and-mortar store. So we see a little bit of lower frequency, but higher baskets.

Of course, everyone is still buying food and drugstore items, but on average in a less frequent way. And, of course, that's a challenge for a retailer. They love the higher basket, but, of course, they don't want to lose frequency there. So that's one thing we learned. And what we also saw is an immense increase of…for example, in Christmas 2020 versus Christmas 2021, if you look at consumer electronics, Christmas 2020 was amazing. But it was a little bit disappointing last year.

So it seems to me that most of this stuff is already in the households. But while consumer electronics and e-commerce is now not gaining that momentum as it was before, travel seems to go up a little bit, or seems to tend to normalize a little bit again. And this is quite interesting because we see everything in the data on a more or less daily basis.

John Koetsier: It's a really neat position you have to basically be in the position to audit the commerce of a nation and see where that's moving. And you have a significant fraction. You're, like, taking an ongoing, real-time, hard data census of what's going on. Has that helped you unlock new opportunities? Have there been new things that you've been able to do as a result?

Nico Winkelhaus: Of course, let's say, we offered the user, who had a higher affinity for shop things online, we offered the user more online shops and more online shopping possibilities. But on the other hand, we offered our, let's say, brick-and-mortar partners our toolkit of increasing frequency or regaining existing customers with our marketing platform. Because since we are a locked-in ecosystem, as a Payback customer, you are always more or less locked in.

So, if you swipe the card, you are locked in. If you go on the website and look at the coupons, you're locked in. If you use the app, you’re also locked in. So, we see the consumer behavior of you, John, for example, on a long-term period. So, we can see, okay, John reduced his consumption of these specific beauty products, or whatever. Now…

John Koetsier: Yeah, obviously.

Nico Winkelhaus: Obviously, shampoo, not that much, but maybe other products. I’m sorry. But we can offer you personalized incentives with a higher coupon to regain…

John Koetsier: Half off shampoo. Half price. Yes.

Nico Winkelhaus: Then the targeting wouldn't work on our side if we do that. But that was our toolkit we could use.

John Koetsier: For everybody who's listening, yeah, I shave my head, so if you're not watching this video on YouTube, that's why we're making jokes about shampoo. Peggy, over to you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Thank you. Now my eyes are watering from laughing so much here. Anyway, I wanted to get back to something here. You're talking about getting people to shop more frequently or, you know, bigger basket size because you said their shopping basket size in some cases is larger, and frequency is down. So, what's your top tip for acquiring users or maybe even incentivizing them to be frequent shoppers?

Nico Winkelhaus: So, one of the major parts is getting your data homework done, because with a good data tech stack and a good data foundation, you can offer the user more relevance. And not only the relevance, but what's also, especially in retail, is very important is to measure the incrementality of all of your marketing.

So that's why in some other industries, you do a campaign and look at the overall curve, and say, “Oh, that seems to have worked more or less.” But from our point of view, we are very keen on measuring the incremental effect. Which we can because, for example, we can offer Peggy a shampoo ad, and John is in the holdout group who doesn't get one. And we look at the incremental effects out of it.

So, it's more easy for us to do that as a locked-in ecosystem, but still it's important to do that also in the, let's say, locked-out open web and app world to do that precisely with, because otherwise you don't have the numbers quite in the right direction.

John Koetsier: Nico, that's super interesting. And I know Peggy has a follow-up question there, but I just want to interject because we've just recently had somebody talking about incrementality, and how it's virtually impossible. But that's not true for you because, as you said, you have this ecosystem, you have these users, and you can say with 100% guarantee that Peggy's seen that ad that I’m not. And so, that's a difference. That's very interesting.

Exactly. Of course, it's also not 100% correct if we do that on our paid media, because it's always, let's say, a thing of 80/20. But it's always better to do that and always better to test that than not to do it. So it's better to have an assurance of 80%, 70%, I’m pretty sure that this is a, more or less, incremental channel than doing nothing in that area.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, given your insights and the fact that you can approach incrementality differently, you know, you can close that loop, you're also seeing sources that are working. What can you tell us about the channels or approaches they're helping you drive, again, those repeat purchases?

Nico Winkelhaus: So, on the one hand, before we started our app growth, we already had millions of monthly and sometimes weekly print direct mailings, which still is a relevant channel for us, where we can also do personalized ads there.

So, it's one of the existing channels we're using quite intensely for promoting the app, and also the good old fashioned newsletter, which is still a very relevant channel for us. It seems to be unsexy for, let's say, purely app marketing experts, but still our average customer is 49 or something. And we have a German average in our program, in our system, and Germans are reading newsletters and reacting to newsletters. So these are two of the channels which are quite well-functioning.

And, of course, we look at different, let's say, changes in social activity, for example, TikTok gaining momentum during the last one and a half years, is still quite cheap, like AdWords in 2005 or Facebook in 2009 when you can do a little bit of arbitrage there to use the low price level there. So these are three channels we are using.

That's super interesting to hear because I just did the ROI index for Singular, wrote it, and TikTok had immense growth over the last calendar year. It's not quite necessarily at the quality that you might hope it will be yet, but there's tremendous momentum there.

I’m really interested in what you're doing with the web and app, because you still have a website. You're very multi-channel in that sense, web, app. You've got the newsletters. You've also got the physical mail that you're sending out. Talk about the web and apps. How's that working? How do you stitch those together? How do you build those and keep those in sync together, and have sort of one message to your user whether they're on the web or on the app?

So, we don't follow the narrative like offer your content at every touch point wherever the users are. Seems to be an old narrative or something that's right. We don't think that's right because we try to establish a kind of positive discrimination of our app. So you can still use the plastic card if you want to, you can still use the desktop website if you want to.

But the better way to use Payback is always using the app because you get more coupons, you get more points. The points are our loyalty currency. You have more convenience when you check out at a brick-and-mortar store because we have mobile payment there, you have the mobile card inside it, and you have more services. So that's why we are still using those channels, but we discriminate against these channels.

And, for example, that's why specifically our mobile website experience is far from, let's say, being a candidate for an UX award. So, it's not the best experience, but it's more or less by design. So that's why we are focusing very much on the best experience in the app. It's always one more in the app.

Peggy Anne Salz: Smart, though, if you think about…

John Koetsier: Trust a German to tell it like it is, Peggy.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah. But it's also smart if you think about it, because I know, Germany, right? And rather than saying, “You need to do this.” No. Just the nudge will be…I have a rotten experience or crap experience, I would say, on the website. But, you know, the app is better. I’ll just gradually go there. And it will feel like free will. It will feel like a choice. Smart.

Nico Winkelhaus: And internally, you have to focus your resources. That's also true. You can’t dance at every party at the same time. That's also a natural law.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, let's take another look at the numbers. You have more than 7 million monthly active users using Payback at least 10 times a month. That's a lot of interaction. You talked about creatives. You also talked about using more of them. How are you using creatives to make these experiences compelling, and ultimately drive those sales, drive those conversions?

Nico Winkelhaus: So, the key is to offer relevancy for the user, so not to offer someone shampoo who doesn't buy one. So, one thing is to be very flexible in your creatives and to offer, let's say, very personalized native ads to the clients. So that's why we have our coupon, our main advertising is always a kind of native ad and very much a personalized experience. So, this is one thing where you can get coupons every day which are personalized based on your shopping behavior.

And then, we also try to help the user before he is shopping something or after he is shopping something, and entertain the user. Because we, for example, do these, as we call, daily engagement mechanics, where it's always good to at least open the app once a day because then you can earn more points or get a sweepstake. And we try to do the incentives a little bit like this so that we say, “Come back tomorrow and you get more. Come back tomorrow and you get more.”

And it’s a difference from the Payback experience you had, let's say, 10 years before because you get one or two print mailings with all the coupons, and you go to a store, and then that's it. Now, since we have 10 visits a month, we can change the behavior of the clients much more or even better because we have so much context there.

John Koetsier: Super interesting. And, Nico, this has been a great session. I’ve learned a lot personally, and I think that you've actually given a huge amount of information and context around what you do that's going to be super useful and relevant for other people. We usually end with this. We ask our mobile expert for their top three tips. So I’m going to ask you for your top three tips for mobile marketers, you know, in retail, but you can go a little beyond if you want to.

Nico Winkelhaus: So, one is to test everything. So, do not stop testing, is the first tip. Look at incrementality, as we discussed before. And my third tip would be looking under the hood of things, looking under the hood of marketing platforms, looking under the hood of reports from those marketing platforms.

For example, so many people were surprised after the iOS 14.5 launched that the post-view transactions were not attributed anymore by Facebook. So the Facebook numbers went down. Of course, if you trust post-view transactions totally, then, of course, you're surprised afterwards. So it's important to understand why a marketing platform is doing that, and to get your own view on exposure and incrementality.

John Koetsier: That makes a lot of sense. Of course, I like hoods. You know, they're shiny, they're painted, and they’re simple. I don't have to dig too deep. But I totally understand, getting deeper, understanding those actual numbers, and understanding why those numbers are where they are is really, really critical. We saw so many people after iOS 14.5 who are just like, “Why are my conversions so high? Why are my prices per user so high?” Well, you know what? Nothing really changed. Your view of the world changed, but the world didn't change that much.

Nico Winkelhaus: Exactly.

John Koetsier: Nico, this has been wonderful. I really want to thank you for spending this time with Peggy and me. It's been super insightful, as I said, and I really do appreciate it.

Nico Winkelhaus: Thank you for having me. It was fun. Thank you.

Peggy Anne Salz: And a special thanks, also, for some information, some insights into how to drive repeat transactions, get people coming back, incentivize them with creatives. I think that's all really valuable because one sale is great, many sales are better, right?

Nico Winkelhaus: That's always true.

John Koetsier: That is very true, Peggy. Absolutely. For everybody else, hey, check out the podcast. If you're on YouTube, check out YouTube. If you're on the podcast, we're also on the Mobile Heroes website, and you know what? They make a full transcript of this thing. So, you don't have to watch us for 30 minutes or listen. You can probably read it in 5 or 10, get out the best parts and get your quotes, all that stuff. Also, if you're a mobile hero, hey, you know what? Peggy wants to talk to you. I want to talk to you. And we want to have you right where Nico is at this very moment. Thanks so much, Nico. And Peggy, great show.

Feb 16, 2022

How To Do Retention-first Mobile User Acquisition

There are not many retention-first mobile user acquisition specialists on the planet. While retention is important — ok, essential — most UA experts focus, naturally, on the acquisition of users. While retention matters, it’s more the product and DevOps teams responsibility.

Not Miray Alanlar, Senior Product Marketing Manager at FOX Bet & PokerStars.

She focuses first on retention, because getting a new user doesn’t even matter if that user is just going to churn out in a few hours or days. That means targeting is critical, onboarding is critical, engagement is critical, and user experience is critical.

In this Mobile Heroes Uncensored, Miray chats with hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz about acquisition, retention, capitalizing on big events like the Super Bowl or Olympics, and maintaining momentum between those natural growth points.

Plus, she even chats about something new we’re calling the “mobile retention stack.”

31 min

Miray Alanlar: Bottom of funnel users are actually the proof of the business case that engineers and product managers work such long hours to build those features and they're using it. They are also a product market fit, right. They are the ones who have adopted most of the product features. They're loyal. So all you can do is just to learn more from them.

John Koetsier: Have you ever heard of a retention growth marketer? Hello, and welcome to Mobile Heroes Uncensored. My name is John Koetsier. My co-host, of course, as always, is Peggy Anne Salz. If you're American and you like sports, you know something big might have just happened, I don't know, like Super Bowl 56, or something like that. And that means a ton of betting.

Well, today we're chatting with a marketer for one of the top fantasy sports and sports betting apps, and she's a retention first growth marketer. Peggy, who are we chatting with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, John, that is it. She insists on calling herself a retention-first growth marketer. We're going to find out what that is. We're talking to Miray Alanlar. She is Senior Product Marketing Manager at FOX Bet and PokerStars, a really well-known app. She herself is also well known, highly driven, is what they say, full stack product marketing mobile growth leader with 7 plus years of mobile product experience, and she's here with us today. Welcome, Miray.

Miray Alanlar: Thank you so much, Peggy and John, for the lovely intro. But can I just say this is a dream come true moment for any mobile marketer to be in this room with two of my heroes? So, it is a pleasure to be here.

Peggy Anne Salz: Wow.

John Koetsier: Wow.

Miray Alanlar: I'm so excited to be here.

Peggy Anne Salz: Make that transfer John. A Bitcoin is on the way, I think.

John Koetsier: Awesome. Yeah, absolutely. The 100 bucks will slip that to you later. Don't tell anybody, but you are in LA right now, and LA is a center of the sports world. I mean, there might be something Olympic-ish going on somewhere in, I don't know, China or something like that. But it's Super Bowl weekend. Let's start with football. Has this not been the most insane playoffs ever?

Miray Alanlar: Oh, yeah. John, it has been the most exciting 18 weeks of NFL ever. And this is actually my first year at the company, observing the biggest event of the year in LA. I'm from LA. The team I support is actually in the final. So, they are playing for the first time ever, and it's our home. It's just so exciting, and it is the show time for Rams, go Rams. And LA is that show town basically.

So, it's pretty exciting, and on a personal level, sports has been in my DNA. I love competition and I played volleyball for the Turkish national team. And my father used to work as a sports camp director, where we had athletes from all over the world practicing sports. So, I was immersed into the world of sports at an early age, and coming from Europe, where soccer is also a popular choice. American football has always excited us growing up. So, now, here I am working at the largest online real money gaming operator on a mission to give sports fans the chance to win every day, and it's just amazing, right? And I'm so excited to be observing this moment in LA.

Peggy Anne Salz: Very, very cool.

John Koetsier: Amazing, amazing. So I mean, Peggy, if we were next to her, I'm guessing we'd be midgets. She's a volleyball player. She's probably like six feet, seven feet tall or something like that, unless she's a setter. I don't know, I haven't got a clue. I have to set the context because we have an international audience. So, we have people in Europe, we have people in India, Africa, Asia, and so the Super Bowl is football, American football. It's not that round thing that bounces on the ground on the pitch, right? And the playoffs have been out of this world. They've been exciting games. They've been decided in the last minute on the very last play. There's been amazing quarterbacking. It's really been a grade A playoffs for the NFL. Maybe before I turn over to Peggy for a bit here, how has betting been in the last few weeks?

Miray Alanlar: Oh, that's a great question, John. And I think I've been reading a couple articles as well, and I think the American Gaming Association has predicted a 70% increase in betting activity across legal betting platforms in legal betting states. So, it's a 70% increase compared to last year. And I think they're also estimating that a total of 32 million Americans will just bet on the Super Bowl, so it is insane. There's also new states that are opened up for legal betting and legal platforms. So, it's just insane. I think the amount of activity across different sports book verticals is just pretty up in the sky.

John Koetsier: Wow.

Peggy Anne Salz: You've also got me really excited about my heritage because I'm from Pittsburgh. So, Steelers is what I grew up with. And that's what makes up my universe. A lot going on out there, as you said. Now they bet, but they do bet for the Super Bowl, or for some other events, but you say you are a retention growth marketer. What is that exactly?

Miray Alanlar: Yeah, I think retention growth marketer is a new concept that I learned throughout my career. So, I never started, "Oh, I want to be a retention marketer," because we're still in the early days of mobile, right? It's a very changing space. So, it actually appealed to me during the early days of, again, like mobile back in 2013. I was taking an entrepreneurship class in college, and I was able to build a mobile app as a class project, which then sold to my biggest competitor in Turkey. And I remember the biggest challenge was to, how to make user sticky, like, okay, I'm able to acquire users less than 25 cents, which was insane back in the time, and you can imagine it's very profitable for investors to, like, it's very exciting for investors to see, "Oh, there are users from all over the world for this particular app, which was built in Istanbul, Turkey."

So, I think that's how I kind of understand, okay, users are leaving the app at some point, and I just need to solve this problem called retention. And I think that's how I also like, started my first job at a app store optimization company, just wanted to understand how big publishers, although I was an indie developer back in the time, but I just wanted to understand the mindset of big publishers on how do they acquire users, one. Two, how they actually retain those users? What other channels do they acquire users from and just build product experiences to retain those users? So that's, I think, how I kind of learned the world of retention, and just my career has evolved into retention marketing naturally.

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, that's interesting, John, because I don't know if you saw it. Well, yes, you actually did. You shared it with me. You shared it with me. That's where I saw it, because I saw that MAU is renamed as the mobile acquisition and retention show. So I guess you're ready for it, aren't you, Miray?

Miray Alanlar: Oh, I am ready.

Peggy Anne Salz: Feel like you're a little ahead of your time. But it totally makes sense because you've got a betting app, and you're saying to yourself, "They're betting on the Super Bowl, but I want to retain them when this is all over." So, I get it.

John Koetsier: So, this is really interesting because I was going to say, you remind me of Rory Sutherland. He's a VP at Ogilvy in the UK. He's an advertising legend. Peggy and I interviewed him before. And there's the one thing that I was going to say that you remind me of him, and I'm going to get to that in a moment, but there's another thing, Peggy, that we have to say.

I mean, remember, we call guests push play guests? So we have a thing, right? There's a thing in the podcasting world, at least for Peggy and I, that we call push play guests. And it's the kind that they don't give one-word answers. They're not boring. They're deep. They understand their space and they're willing to talk about it. I'm getting a sense that Miray is a push play guest, which is wonderful, because Peggy and I can just take a break, relax, have a vacation, whatever, chill, drink some wine, some beer, whatever, and there you go. But I actually get to my question.

So, what I was actually going to say, Rory Sutherland, he's a marketer. He's an advertiser, but he also wanted to start at the bottom of the funnel, not the top of the funnel, because he saw that that was most important. Why did you start there?

Miray Alanlar: That's an amazing question. I think that's an amazing way of defining bottom of funnel users. And I like this metaphor to call them the cherry on the top. You just have the perfect dessert, and when you have cherry on the top, it's unbelievable, out of this world. So, bottom of funnel users are actually the proof of business case that engineers and product managers work so long hours to build those features, and they're using it. They are also a product market fit, right? They are the ones who have adopted most of the product features. They're loyal.

So, all you can do is just to learn more from them. So, you can do like a lot of things by just analysing the bottom of funnel, like, you can create different data science models to target right users, so you spend your dollars more effectively and acquire the right users and so your user bucket, like, your UA funnel is less leaky, which is a dream for any mobile marketer, right?

And other most important things you can do, you can try to create viral growth with that particular bottom funnel users by just understanding, again, their attributes, like, can they compete? Can they share, invite their friends? Can they collaborate? So, how can I create that particular network effect so that they can bring more users in? And again, like going back to the learning, like, how can I also embed some of those features that they like into the product experience itself, right? Like, so an example could be like Dropbox. Dropbox has its own, like built-in feature called folder sharing, right? It's already in there. It's already bringing more users in, and it can spread on its own. So, it's just amazing.

And another, I think, example, can be one of my favourite applications called Resy. I'm a big foodie and every time I make a reservation on Resy, I can just seamlessly invite my guests to see the restaurant, see the appointment time. So, it's just a very, like easy built-in feature. It's naturally bringing more bottom funnel users into the app, and it's creating viral growth. It is basically making us efficiently also target users, spend less, and just continue to stay ROI positive.

So, I think that's why it's really important to like, understand and learn more from the bottom of funnel users. And that's how I think my mind set is. Every time I join a new company or a new organization, the first thing I do in my first 30 days is, just to take a look at the product events, and attributes to understand what users are actually using more. So, yeah, I think...

Peggy Anne Salz: And how to hook them, Miray, isn't that part of it? I mean, it's all about that hook, and we've had guests, John, who talk about the product, the mechanics, getting people in through that. And you talked about a network effect, and I want to get to that, because that's what you've got here, which is also really interesting. You have the sports betting app, but you have to figure out again, what to do between the great events, between Super Bowl and the next tournament? Or what happens for March Madness around the corner, right? And that's where you have your fantasy, your sports fantasy apps coming in. How does that work together? I mean, what does a retention focus mean, when you have these two apps, and pulling them together as well?

Miray Alanlar: Sure, sure, Peggy. I think it's an amazing question, so it is, again, like going back to the product attributes and events, like you can see a particular group of users who are engaging with certain features and certain sports, and you have, again, like, I think we are very fortunate enough to see their attributes, like meaning their location, their interest across some non-sports events, which we also have that free-to-play app where our users can just pop into the app and answer some pop culture questions about who may be the winner for particular NASCAR events, or any sort of leagues across the years.

So that's actually like a 360 approach that we're trying to look, but if you have a really strong cross-sell strategy between different products, different portfolio of products that you have, you are also naturally being an ambassador of that particular product, like bringing, you can create experiences like, oh, you have actually bets on Super Bowl, and you have started couple sessions and learned more about teams and you created your own team in the daily fantasy world, and here's the top three things that you can do. Here's the articles about what's coming next, just to keep the excitement going, and again nurture them accordingly.

But cross-sell is definitely a key element to really keep the momentum going on, and also creating some sort of like FOMO, fear of missing, like effect, so they stay and they learn because we are not just like saying, "Come back. We miss you," but we are providing a value. We are providing an educational landscape for them now, during the off-season. So yeah, there are, I think, a couple of ways that we're testing and learning each day, but it's learning and yeah, so…

John Koetsier: Cool. That reminds me a little bit of a game that I play, where if I come in every day, I get a reward. If I don't come in that day, I miss out on that reward. So, that's kind of a retention focus strategy there. You mentioned that really cool feature in Resy, which, in retrospect, I guess genius is obvious, right? If you look back at it, somebody else really smart did something, it looks obvious, well, why not invite the people right in there, and they can see you at the restaurant. They can see what the menu is, they can see, is there a kosher item on the menu, or whatever they need to see. But I had never thought of that before a reservation app, and you just invite the people that you're meeting there, and they can see that, and maybe it gets on their calendar. Have you done anything like that? Have you taken any inspiration from something like that into your betting apps?

Miray Alanlar: Yeah, I think I should say this, I'm a little stalker, stalking a lot of competitor applications. I think it's anyone in our industry, right, when you're retention/growth focused marketer, you're always like, when you download an app, you just naturally like, understand, like, "Okay, here's the flow that they apply," and I'm actually in my first snap screen. That was a seamless experience. So, how can I actually build a similar experience? So you always have that particular mindset. And I think one thing I like to experiment within the organization is to, again, going back to their vital growth, how can we invite, how can our users, our loyal users, can bring more friends in? And I think there was this, I think it's a very, very basic concept of sharing and inviting your friends. But as a result of completing a first contest entry, let's say, users are now prompted into a screen where it says, "Now that you've made your predictions, you basically choose your favourite teams, you're like, who's going to win what and who's going to be the winner, and just why don't you share with your friends and just compete with them, compete against them?"

And we just build that particular feature in, and right after users complete their contest entries, they see a full screen, interstitial, with some football influencers in it, and a great copy and creative landed in it, and users are naturally sharing with their friends. So I think that's something I wanted to apply seeing how bringing more friends in can turn into a real life example. But I'm also seeing a lot of great experiences across different apps. And again, being a retention focused marketer, I like seeing how other marketers are sending me the right push notification at the right time, and it's amazing. I love how the Uber Eats app is getting super, like creating more automated experiences for me. So, I think the app knows what type of food that I'm ordering each day. So, it's just particularly letting me know that there are great restaurants that have Mexican cuisine. Obviously, like, over the weekend I have a different behavior that I am doing, and again, Uber Eats is sending me particular offers that they know I'm a happier person over the weekend, and I like to go…

Peggy Anne Salz: We all are, Miray.

Miray Alanlar: Yeah, yeah, right.

Peggy Anne Salz: The new segmentation here.

Miray Alanlar: Yeah. So yeah, just like understanding like, what type of basic experiences and automation that they create, if I'm about to churn? Am I getting a really great discount code? Or am I just getting like occasional discount codes, which is nothing but more like just a onetime one-stop shopping. So yeah, just in general, trying to understand the different types of, I guess, like life cycle tactics that they're using and channels that they're automating, and experiences that they're creating with just in-app push and email. So, I'm all in that. And I'm all about keeping a bookmark sort of thing and creating a library with my co-workers to just review, like, what can we do in our one-on-ones, and in just like casual meetings to inspire from others because obviously, like, it doesn't mean that it's going to work for our vertical, but you never know until you test it. So testing is a really easy thing and I guess if you can test it, then you can say, "Okay, this doesn't work for us," and/or, "It works for us." So I'm all into learning from others and keeping myself inspired by other players in our industry to see what they're doing great.

John Koetsier: That makes a ton of sense. And she told us she was a foodie, Peggy, and two of the apps that she's given examples from, just shockingly, surprisingly, are from food apps. So, apparently somebody likes food here. I'll tell you the feature I would like. I would like the ability to like, okay, here's my circle of friends, maybe my influencers. I want to kick off a video session, or live video session in the app, before I make my selection. Who do you think, should it be this? Should it be that team? How much you think? What's the difference, what's the spread going to be, all that stuff, and then I'd make my selections. But hey, I'm just giving that one out for free. If you make a billion dollars with that, just remember me.

Miray Alanlar: Okay, John.

Peggy Anne Salz: He was going to say, giving away some free advice here. She's just going to do it, because she's watching all the apps.

Miray Alanlar: See, that's why I called you guys as mobile heroes at the beginning, because you guys have an amazing knowledge, and I'm sure we have a lot to learn from you by just being part of this great experience itself.

John Koetsier: When you hear a lot of smart stuff from smart people, occasionally, you remember just a little bit of it.

Peggy Anne Salz: But you're smart Miray. And that's why you're here as well. You're a retention-first growth marketer. You were talking about yourself, how important is the experience, if we read between the lines of what you've been telling us, it's about stickiness. It's about experience, about segmentation to know your valuable users, the ones who are deep in the funnel, keep them coming back, let them get the friends in, all of that. That's sort of like the practical side, the tactical side. I want to understand the growth stack side of this. I mean, what are the tools in the mobile retention stack? Lift the lid and tell us.

Miray Alanlar: See, this is also pretty new, Peggy. I don't think any of us have ever called it a mobile retention stack ever.

Peggy Anne Salz: First, it's a first here, John, they're always first here.

John Koetsier: Get the NFT.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's it. It's coming.

Miray Alanlar: It's coming, yeah. So, I think that in a nutshell, a mobile retention stack can be as easy as your built-in tools, like your CRM tools or your developer tools. If you're an indie developer and if you're not able to manage big contracts with those amazing vendors over there, like Leanplum, CleverTap, Braze, then there is this thing called Firebase where you can still…

John Koetsier: Never heard of that. Does that exist? Who makes that? Some unknown company. I'm joking.

Peggy Anne Salz: You’re cracking her up, John.

Miray Alanlar: I know. I'm like, okay.

Peggy Anne Salz: No, no, it is a joke, I swear.

Miray Alanlar: Firebase? Yeah, Firebase has also…

John Koetsier: A lot of tools there.

Miray Alanlar: Yeah, a lot of tools, a lot of like, low-hanging fruits for us to really collect. And I will say, yeah, like, if you have a great CRM tool, that's amazing, but there are also other, like, free tools out there. So, let's say like, CRM tools. And the second thing that you need is a great data pipeline, meaning that a great, I think, very well organized data system in place, so you can just connect the two of them, and just get insights daily. So, I will say just two things, like, your own data and the CRM tool of your choice. So that's what I call my mobile retention stack. And I should also mention our MMP, because it also helps me to create a deep link. So yeah, let's say, well, one deep linking tool, one CRM tool, and your own data systems, like being able to manipulate your data systems and just being able to create some dashboards out of that, that's all you need. It's as easy as that. You don't need a lot of other tools in there.

John Koetsier: It's good to hear that because if I ever look at the mobile growth stack, and I look at that occasionally, then I look, and there's literally 50 different slots there. And I'm going like, "Are you kidding me? Are you unbelievably kidding me? There is no way I can have a tool to fill each one of those boxes, and have enough people to even manage those. Take a look at those, keep those updated, keep them integrated," all that other stuff like that. So, I do need a fairly simplified stack. So that's a pretty small retention stack right now, Peggy, but we might add to that, we'll see. That's a project right there. So we're coming to the end here. We got to let you go. You've got bets to place. You've got apps to work on…

Miray Alanlar: I can’t, I can’t, John.

Peggy Anne Salz: …to order, okay. Wow, okay.

John Koetsier: Oh, okay. But that means she gets paid a couple of million dollars a year, if you can’t bet, right? So, it's all good, no worries, and it all comes out in the wash. Just joking on that, of course. But here is where we typically end, but we always ask our mobile heroes for their top three tips. So, we're going to ask you, your top three tips for mobile marketers in, let's say, the sports and betting verticals heading into 2022. What are your top three tips for mobile marketers?

Miray Alanlar: Sure, John. I think it's really basic that if I should say, be your own mini data scientist. So, really, just leverage your data, understand user attributes very well, and just create data models based off of the systems in place. So, if you have a big BI/data science team, that's amazing. But if you don't have it, just create your own, like be your own data scientist and create your own data science models, and just try to focus on incremental impact.

And number two, I think it's something I've seen over the years is, never changed on my ends across social utility business apps that I've worked, and now I’m in sports betting, focus on quality over quantity. So like, really, are you getting the whole juice of your mobile retention stack? Are you really leveraging the power of emails, push, personalization? Like, are you testing your middle banner, top banner? Are you testing? Are you using rich notifications, like songs, like rich images, GIPHYs, like video? So really, like get all the juice of your life cycle/retention stack.

And number three, I think, continue to improve any sort of user flow. So it can be your onboarding flow. It can be your, I don't know, like your checkout flow of your…for us, like your wagering flow, your deposit flow, just understand what else you can make to improve that particular user flow, as CPIs are getting expensive. They're not going to get cheap anytime soon. So, just improve your existing user flow. So those are all going to be my top three tips.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Wonderful. That was excellent. Thank you.

Peggy Anne Salz: I like that, John, yeah. It's do more with what you have. It's make more out of your tools in your toolbox, email, all that stuff. Look at the flow, go with the flow. Did I say that, John? But…

John Koetsier: Oh wow. Oh, wow. Is it late where you are, Peggy?

Peggy Anne Salz: I knew he’d hate it. I knew he’d hate it.

John Koetsier: Yes, it is. What I also like, in what Miray said, was, hey, quality over quantity, because there's so much you can do, there’s so much you can focus on. I think that sometimes what people get lost in is, I can do this, this, this…there's literally a thousand things you could do at any given time, and if you don't focus, you will get absolutely zero of them done. Pick one. It may not even be the most important one, ideally it is, but do something, right?

This has been wonderful, Miray. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a real pleasure. So, thank you for your time.

Miray Alanlar: Oh, no. It's my pleasure. Thank you for hosting me, John. And I hope to see you guys in LA, so I can show you the…like, the amazing side of the city.

John Koetsier: Again, soon I hope, yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: Now that's a thought, I'll go with that. And in addition to a beautiful place here, of course, some great beautiful insights. I want to thank you, Miray, really. It's been exciting. Our first time, John. Our first retention first growth marketer. I think we've got a trend here. There's something going on.

Miray Alanlar: Let's continue to build a retention stack.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yay, team. No, I'm just kidding. Thanks so much.

John Koetsier: Excellent. Well, thank you, again. AS Peggy usually says, I will say it. We love shining the light on mobile marketers with super powers like Miray. So if you have a super power or even a really good power, let us know. Ping us, LinkedIn, Twitter and we will, as Peggy likes to say get the party started. It is 9pm her time, in Germany, on Friday night and guess what it is time to start the party so we have to run. Thank you again Miray and have a wonderful weekend and hope that your team wins.

Miray Alanlar: I hope so, thank you Peggy, thank you John.

Feb 9, 2022

How To Beat the Biggest, Baddest, Richest Competitors

Imagine competing with Apple, or Google, or Amazon, or Spotify. Better yet, imagine competing with all of them at the very same time.

Sounds insane?

Not for Audiomack, which has been streaming music from creators to fans for over a decade. In this Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we dive deep into Senior VP of Revenue Dave Edwards’ story: how Audiomack wins, how it monetizes, and how it’s become super-successful doing things that everyone else thinks are crazy.

We chat about:

  • “David” marketing strategies for fighting “Goliath”
  • Maximizing ads-based monetization
  • New audio formats, including shake-to-click
  • Communicating unique brand stories with almost no budget
  • Making short attention spans your friend
  • Video ads versus audio ads
  • Getting 60% opt-in rates on ATT
  • Monetization programmatically vs direct
  • Dave Edwards’ top 3 tips for maximizing monetization

22 min

John: So competition is pretty fierce in mobile app and game marketing, right? It's kind of tough out there. You've got it tough out there, right? Well, sure you do, but are you competing against Google, Apple, Amazon, Spotify, Pandora, and even TIDAL? Our next guest is in the music streaming business, and they've been successfully competing with the biggest and best tech companies on the planet for more than a decade. I mean, really challenging. We're gonna hear how. Welcome to “Mobile Heroes Origin Stories” where we go in depth, one-on-one with mobile marketing experts. Peggy who's our expert today?

Peggy: Well, John, we have Dave Edwards, formerly a full-time music producer, so really in the business. Dave brought his passion for music to the mobile app marketing business. That's his career now, Dave is senior vice president of revenue at Audiomack. And Audiomack, yes, it's one of those companies out there in that very competitive space. It's a top 10 music app helping the artists share music and expand their audience at the same time. And he, Dave, oversees all revenue streams there. Now, I did a little looking, as I always do, John, his colleagues say that Dave is a, quote, “Bonafide tastemaker, a self-starter, and possesses outstanding peripheral vision of the streaming business in a way that can't be taught.” So here we are, if we're wanting to learn and listen, we're in the right place. So here we are with Dave. John, bring him on.

John: Welcome, Dave. Welcome.

Dave: Thank you, guys. Thanks so much for having me, excited to be here.

Peggy: Ready to Learn Dave?

John: We're super pumped to have you. You know, Peggy calls it looking, former boyfriends call it stalking. But hey, you know, I mean, potato potahto. Look, we want to go in depth with you and your story, but let's start here. You're competing with some of the biggest and best funded companies on the planet. How on earth are you doing that?

Dave: Good question. It's always a challenge. I think what we've really tried to do at Audiomack is carve out a unique part of the music space for ourselves. When we look at Spotify and Apple Music, and/or TIDAL, Google Play, YouTube, I could go on for probably five minutes there. Most of those services offer the same catalog of music. They really try to appeal to basically every type of music, and whether that's someone in their 70s, 50s, their 30s, someone who's 15, we've really tried to connect a specific type of listener. Someone who's into hip hop, Latin, or Afro beats, someone who's young, 93% of our audience is under 34, and we really focus on the music that they're into. We focus on independent emerging talent. A lot of times we're featuring artists well before they're even on Spotify. And so we really just tried to carve out a niche for ourselves, and so let the product do the rest.

Peggy: Also very connected to that artist community. I mean, overall, Dave, what's the brand promise here?

Dave: Yeah, so I think for us, as you pointed out, we are a direct to fan platform for artists. So we really, you know, if you like the phrase, like, two-sided marketplace, we have to serve both creators and listeners. So for artists, we are, as far as I know, the only free hosting platform that scale for music. So in other words, whether you have one song or a million, as long as they're all yours, you can host them for free on Audiomack, you can get advanced stats, you can also do that if you have a podcast. And for fans, we offer an affordable streaming experience, which really focuses, as I said, on those creators who are emerging, up and coming, more so than legacy superstars. Not that there's anything wrong with that but again, you have Spotify and Pandora really have that terrain covered. So people really come to Audiomack to learn about what's next music, what's next culture, and to find it first with us.

Peggy: Great segue, because I have to ask you, that is a unique proposition, but how do you find you best communicate it to your potential customer?

Dave: Yeah, so I think it's been a few things. I think for us, we've been really fortunate to have an incredible content team. So we have more YouTube News on our original content, this is content that we do with artists who are on our platform. We have more YouTube views on our content then, I believe, every other music streaming app. So that's something that we're really proud of because we are a pretty small team, we're under 100 full-time employees. We are up against, you know, the Spotifies of the world, which are…I don't know, 5000 people, somewhere in that ballpark. So for us, content has been a really big part of our marketing focus for the past few years. And I think that really leads into what we do because, again, with a very young Gen-Z audience, they really want to engage directly with the artist. So for us, what we find is a bit more effective than, say, like a billboard, out-of-home advertising, just for us personally, it's funding content and artist partnerships and activations. You know, things that again, really draw that shortest line between the listener and the audience.

John: Let's dig into that a little deeper. Peggy, I stole your line. I know you do that all the time. So I just shamelessly stole that.

Peggy: I mean, absorb it for a moment, John. You know, a small team, long tail content, and just blowing the others out of the water in where it counts on social platforms like YouTube, that's incredible. High-five to you.

John: It really is incredible.

Dave: I can't take any credit for that, they do an amazing job. It really is something that has helped to fuel our growth over the years.

John: So their marketing budgets, you mentioned there are 5 thousand people, Apple's a couple hundred thousand people, not everybody on music, obviously, YouTube music, Google music, all that stuff out there. Their marketing budgets might be 10x your total budget, they might have 100x your people, how do you turn that disadvantage into an advantage?

Dave: I totally agree. I think it made me more like 1000x on the marketing side. Well, we’ll call it 100x and meet in the middle. What we've just seen is that by focusing on a very specific sub part of the market, that's really what works for us. I think if we were to try to compete with Spotify and Apple on their turf, in other words, offering every song ever made, you know, essentially offering the same product at the same price point, that would be very tough to reign for us, right, because they just have vastly more resources. And so our focus, whether it's on the marketing side, curation, you know, products, basically everything just feeds back to our core user, understanding that user, understanding the media formats they engage with, the music they engage with, the artists they engage with, and just really doubling and tripling down on that same consumer, because it's a very large audience in and of itself. I think around the world we're talking, you know, over 100 million people who are into these genres and very actively listening to them. So for us, that market alone is enough, and that's really what we're focused on. And also, of course, certainly, hopefully better than other platform to scale. And so our focus is not necessarily on conquering the entire streaming market. It's a fun goal, and if we get there, we certainly wouldn't be upset. But I can't say that that's our day-to-day focus. Our main focus is really just serving our specific customer, our listener as well as we can.

John: Peggy that's super interesting, actually, right? I mean, because it's relevant to many of the gaming industry professionals that we talked to, and many others in mobile. Defining your market, defining your customer, how can you define it in such a way that's real, there's a market there, there's a segment of people there that you can serve, but is different than those giant studios with billions of dollars?

Peggy: So it's also great to see not everybody wants to own the world, you know, John?

John: Isn’t there a talk about that?

Peggy: Exactly. I'm thinking, you know, he just wants to do his thing. And if it goes really well, that's really great. But that's exactly it, it's that focus. And I want to talk about focus of another kind. And that's being very clear about how you monetise. Now, you monetise via ads. Just help us understand here your strategy. How are you doing that? How are you maximising the revenue?

Dave: Yeah, so in our ad supported tier, we do have both. We have a premium tier at $4.99 per month in the U.S., and then that scales, depending on the GL. But yes, most of our revenue does come from ads. So for us, and again, it ties back from the same point of understanding our user, right, who is typically about 20 years old, they really lean into interactivity, so interactive video, interactive audio. Today, we're actually launching our first interactive video campaign with McDonald's here in the states. So we really try to lean into these formats that are a bit atypical, they're high impact, because if you think about what this generation knows, and what they're used to, and just their kind of language, that's what it is. It's short attention span, high-impact, full-screen, when you think about TikTok, Instagram, non-music apps where they're spending a lot of their time if they're not listening to music, that's the format thing now. So we try to meet them where they are. And I think, you know, that's something that regardless of what your audience is, whether your users are 70s, whether it's all across the board, whether they're 18, I think understanding your user and tailoring your ad journey to them is really, really important, and not just taking a one-size fits all approach and just, you know, cramming ads into the app.

John: I want to follow up on that briefly, because I read your blog post, your “Mobile Heroes” blog post, and you said, “Hey, you know, we're an audio streaming app, and we do video ads.” Talk about that, how that works, how you came upon that realisation, and why that makes sense?

Dave: Sure. So our co-founders, both of our founders, Dave…also both named Dave, Dave Macli and Dave Ponte. They both actually had a background in not just ad sales, but specifically within the video space. So they knew that space really well before coming to Audiomack, before founding Audiomack, so that was just…it was kind of a natural place for us to start. But the other part of it for us was when we talked to most people who are, you know, 17, 18, 22 years old, they just prefer video as a format over audio. I do think there are some exceptions, but kind of across the board, we just saw a better audience for video with our users so we chose to start there. And to your point, it was probably a very atypical way to go. When I talked to media agencies, explained that we just launched Audio about a year ago, they're usually very surprised, but it's worked out well for us.

Peggy: Something else you’re doing that’s a little bit atypical is, you would imagine for your Gen-Z audience, you'd imagine that app tracking transparency, you know, you'd imagine they're not too fond of that, but you have a massive 60% opt in rate? I mean, how does that happen?

Dave: So I would say a couple of things. I think the first thing I would say is, is that we've managed to build trust over the years with our users, we do not sell users’ data. As a publisher that's achieved a certain scale. I know we've certainly been approached by certain companies to do that. I know some apps do that, some don't, and we just never have. It would have been, kind of, quick and easy money, but it just did not sit right with us. And I think over the long term, that actually has really benefited us. You know, we traded some short-term gain for a much larger long term one, and I think our users understand why we have ads. We really are very direct about explaining empty ATT prompt, but the reason we have ads is so that we can pay artists. We do have a marginal cost to our business where every time you stream a song, we have to pay an artist or a label or both. So I think users understand that if you explain it to them. And that was a huge part of our strategy, which is being very transparent, we don't sell your data, here's why we have ads, and we were able to get a really strong opt-in rate.

John: I want to ask a little bit about how it works. And it's kind of interesting, Peggy because we've been dealing largely with marketers and advertisers who are buying ads. And now, over the past couple months we’re gaining a few more on, hey, the publisher’s side who are offering space for those ads, and I want to…I didn't see an Advertise with Us link on Audiomack, so I was wondering…I guess you enable programmatic access to your inventory. What are some of the upsides and downsides of that, and how do you maintain the quality of what kinds of ads you want to offer and how they get offered in that scenario?

Dave: Sure. So we have both programmatic and direct offerings, a lot of them overlap. You know, they each have their advantages, right? So with direct, you have a bit more…you're obviously interfacing directly with the client, you can really tailor things to their needs, but it requires a lot of time, right? You have to send IOs, you have to manage the insertion of the ads, you have to send a report in, and you have to do accounting, invoicing. You know, programmatic is more turnkey, so I think we prefer a mix of both. I think the one challenge you sometimes have on the programmatic side is you have less control both over the advertiser and the ad creative. So as anyone who has a mobile app with ads knows, sometimes you get ads that you're just not happy with coming into the app, and so we have to really, you know, be on alert, kind of, at all times to make sure that we don't have ads that are either upsetting to a user, impacting retention, crashing the app, all of those types of things. So those are things you do need to watch out for on the non-direct side. But I think there's a place for both.

Peggy: It's interesting in the formats, podcasting platforms are very hot, audio advertising formats, very hot. What are some learnings that a podcasting platform could take from that, what you're talking about with your inventory, with your approach to monetisation?

Dave: Yeah, I think the main thing that will come to mind for me is maybe interactive audio. That's a format that can be piloted with a number of clients last year that we've really seen resonate well with our users. In our case, that is a user being able to shake their device to interact with the ads, so it'll actually take them to a web page if you shake your device during the ad. So that's been a big one for us. Yeah, to your point, audio is very hot right now. So we are at this point we are into audio but, again, I think it really depends on that listener, right? If you're a podcast platform, maybe you're serving, kind of, all types of listeners. But if you are only hosting, you know, a podcast that leans younger, you may want to think about more interactive formats, you might want to maybe lean away from that if you cater to an older audience, or via targeting for a specific audience who’s, you know, on the same platform. So I think it's a very exciting time for audio. I think you're gonna see the space change quite a bit over the next few years. There's voice ads, now there's shake ads. I'm sure as we move into, you know, augmented reality, they’ll figure out how to do like blink to click into this ad or something crazy, but we're not quite there yet. But I think it's an area that's seeing a lot of investment. I think agencies are really finally seeing the value in audio, in addition to video and display. So we're definitely excited about that.

John: In the category of learn something new every day, I was kind of wondering what is an interactive audio ad? Do I have to talk? Right? Kind of explain that.

Dave: Yeah, yeah. I've seen…

John: I've seen video ads that are interactive and you have a click or something like that, right, which doesn't necessarily work. I'm wondering if I'm jogging, am I saying yes to everything?

Dave: That's actually a very fair point. And when we try out these new formats, we actually are very conservative about how we do it. We don't just deploy them to everyone on the same day and sell out the first day because we do want to make sure that when we introduce a new format, that we're not destroying the user experience. The feedback that we've gotten on interactive audio has been very good, but the jogging use case is one I had not really considered. We will have to think about that one.
John: I think the phone would be smart enough in that case. I was being a little bit facetious. It knows that you are jogging, you're probably doing a workout. Is there any other interactivity that's built into it or is the shake one modality?

Dave: Yeah, it's just shaking for us right now. We have talked to Instreamatic who does the voice ads, but there may be other partners who do those currently, but I think they're one of the main ones. So that's of interest to us as well. One of the things that we see is just that our users are typically…you know, a lot of times they're on the subway, they're, you know, most of them are based in cities. So I think for a lot of them, the idea of, like, speaking is just a bit tougher, because they may be in a very noisy environment. They're not in a quiet, you know, home environment like this. So we wanted to try out shake first. But I think, again, depending on the context, if someone's in their car, I think an audio ad that you can speak to actually works very well.

John: I feel very stupid talking to my phone in public so I totally understand that.

Peggy: I'm trying to get my head around the shake interaction. I wasn't aware of that. Okay, this might be something we drop. But can we explore that because we're a global show, and I'm sure there's going to be people…you know, we just had our German “Mobile heroes,” John, you know, we're lining up for LATAM. What does this look like?

John: I don't know, but I think we should explore it. I mean, shake to follow somebody on social, shake to…what can you do? Shake to link to… It's pretty cool. I love it. I don't know how new it is, but I think it's pretty new because it's the first that I'm really hearing about it.

Peggy: Yeah.

Dave: We work with Pandora and AdWords for the interactive ads. And, yeah, you can actually do a lot of different things with them. We chose not to access this permission. But if you want to, you can have the user call, like, you know, a number, or you can have them register for an event with their calendar app, open a website, and so there are different, kind of, click-through or conversion events. For us, we just choose to keep it pretty simple and make sure that if a user was doing something, it's pretty well-defined, and that was just going to a web browser.

John: Well, thank you for informing us. That's pretty cool. That's why we do this show. Let's get a little bit more personal, Dave. Let's talk about you. What's your story? How did you get into this position? How did you get into mobile monetisation in general? What keeps you engaged here?

Dave: Yeah, so the most honest answer is, kind of, by accident, but I was very much enjoying it. So I was a full-time music producer for, you know, six or seven, maybe eight years, released music on all three major labels here in the states. Did some remixes for artists like The Chainsmokers and, you know, really enjoyed that life. But, you know, as I started to get a bit older, I just wanted to learn more about technology, I wanted a bit more of a steady income. As you know, the music business can be quite up and down. So I happened to meet Dave Macli, who’s the founder of Audiomack around that time. So he brought me on initially to sign up artists to the platform. That went well, so I started our sales operation. And that went well, so I now oversee, you know, basically all revenue for the platform. So, you know, if you had told me I'd be doing this like five or six years ago, I probably would not have believed you. But, you know, I’ve just tried to learn a lot, read a lot, and I just always stay curious. Coming into this business, very much as kind of an outsider, without that background, I do feel has been helpful in a sense. I was just able to start from scratch, try to learn from the smartest people in this space. And still have a lot to learn but, you know, we've been able to monetise quite well with Audiomack.

John: I can't tell you how much I love that. Peggy and I talk to a lot of people and we see a lot of different career paths, and they're pretty janky. There's very few people who know what they want to do at Boom, follow it straight line, there you go, no deviation whatsoever. And I kind of love that, it's kind of great, because if you don't necessarily know where you're going, you don't necessarily know where it's going to end up. You know, follow interest, follow opportunity, and probably, hopefully, good things are going to happen.

Dave: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think, you know, something I've learned as I've gotten a bit older that I don't think I understood when I was like in my 20s, is that it's good to be flexible. I mean, there is something to be said for, you know, if you're like that 14-year-old who knows that he wants to build some huge app and just relentlessly focuses on that for 15 years, I definitely respect that. But I do think there's something good to being flexible, seeing how the world is changing, seeing how you might be able to fit into where things are going more so than you would have in the past. I think…one of the things that I think about a lot is that the music business has gotten a lot tougher for artists, to be frank. It's easier than ever to make music, there's more competition on streaming platforms than ever. So for me, part of it was just, kind of, seeing what was happening and saying, “I'm not sure I'm going to be able to really thrive as an artist, but I might want to take a different path here.” And I'm grateful that I made that decision for sure.

Peggy: The next thing we have to also note, John, that what he's also doing, what I love about your career is that you're helping other artists thrive, and you understand their side of the business so it's bringing that to Audiomack, which is how you're making it possible. You know, you're saying, “We're taking in money, but we're making the music and the entertainment possible in the first place,” so there's…seeing it from both sides. We do have to be wrapping up, and we always ask our guests three tips or top takeaways. And yours is, of course, from your vantage point so tell us, Dave, what are your top three tips for mobile app publishers who want to maximise their revenue?

Dave: Sure. So I think the first one is this, and I've said this before, but know who your users are. I know it sounds obvious, but I think that understanding the demographic we're trying to cater to, or multiple demographics, is really key. If you are an app that doesn't have as unique a user base as we do, just in the sense that we're…you know, we’re very focused, right, 93% under 34 is not very typical, I think. So maybe you're catering to a few different age ranges, or whatever it might be, you can use targeting to take some of our strategies and still apply that. I think number two, always asking for references with ad networks, partners, mediation platforms, and so on. And I think number three is just prioritising that long-term trust over short-term gains. I think building that trust with your users is always the most important thing.

John: Wonderful, wonderful. Well, Dave, it has been a real pleasure to chat with you. It's been a pleasure to see some of your musical instruments in the background there, a little blurred out via AI. But hey, we can see it, that's pretty awesome. Thank you so much for taking this time.

Dave: Thank you for having me. Great to be here.

Peggy: Plus one here, John. It was great to have you on the show, Dave. Great to hear what you've been doing, and what you've been learning, and that you share it with us. And, of course, that's what it's all about, sharing your learnings so that's why we have our mobile heroes on the podcast. If you think you're a mobile hero, you have a great story, then connect with us, we'll set you up with your own show. Until then, I'm Peggy Anne Salz.

John: And I'm John Koetsier here. Have a great day. And thanks, again, Dave.

Dave: Thank you

Feb 2, 2022

3 Types of Data You Need on Competitive Apps

What do you need to know about competitive apps? In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we chat with Apptopia CEO Jonathan Kay, who shares the three super-simple but uber-important pieces of data you need on competitors.

(Apptopia, by the way, collects 4 billion data points daily on over 1 million apps.)

Plus hosts Peggy and John ask Jonathan about app trends for 2022, finding new opportunities in data, knowing when to get excited about spikes in downloads and when not to, and Jonathan’s 3 top tips for mobile marketers.

We also learn why Dunkin Donuts is super successful with its Apple Carplay app, why Sam’s Club gained on Costco in mobile, and why there’s an endless runner game with minions in it.

29 mins

John: Haven't you always wanted to have an all-seeing Eye of Sauron to see exactly what your competitors are doing? I know I have. Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." Today we're talking about data, but not your marketing data. We're talking about competitor data, or maybe competitive landscape data. Today, my co-host, Peggy Anne Salz, and I are chatting with someone who sees more data than perhaps 99.9% of us, maybe all of us almost, which isn't to say, of course, that he's the dark lord of Mordor. Peggy, who are we chatting with?

Peggy: No, he's not that, but does bring a bit of insight to our Middle Earth existence, John. We have Jonathan Kay, founder and CEO of Apptopia. Apptopia is the app insights and intelligence company that counts clients, including Google, Zoom, Visa, NBC. So people are coming to this destination for the data. He's also a mobile pioneer, entering the market maybe possibly not quite before us, John, but back in 2011.

John: Yeah, old timer.

Peggy: Old timer on a mission to add transparency to the mobile ecosystem through modeled data estimates and create a level playing field. And this passion for collecting and analyzing billions of complex data points is perhaps only equaled by his own growth mindset. As he puts it, and I quote, "It's easy to be good and really hard to be great." So with that mindset, let's strap in what I will think would be for a very good show. Welcome Johnathan.

John: What are you talking about? Apparently, it's easy to be good, so, you know, we got to aim for great here, right? Welcome, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Exactly, yeah. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you, guys, for having me. I'm super pumped to be here.

John: So are we. We're looking forward to this. It's kind of a new thing we're doing with "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." We're doing some stuff obviously with the mobile heroes. We're doing some stuff with experts in the space and data experts as well. So blow our minds a little bit. How much data do you collect? How many apps? Give us some of the numbers?

Jonathan: Yeah, so we are collecting probably over 4 billion data points a day. And we are providing app estimates on about a million to a million and a half apps on a daily basis. We have data on all apps that are in the store, but not more than a million apps are actually getting downloaded on any given basis. So it's just different levels of granularity.

John: Yeah, I think that could all fit on my laptop. I mean, 4 billion points. I can run that off a server in my closet.

Jonathan: Listen, the new MacBook Pros are pretty good, John. I think if you get the right one, you might be okay.

John: How do you get all that data?

Jonathan: Yeah, so I would say it pretty much breaks into two components. A lot of it is like good old fashioned web scraping, like public domain. And the challenge there is collecting geographic granularity and, like, intraday granularity, like collecting metadata on apps throughout the day as it's changing pretty much hourly, hourly and by country for every app. And then the kind of more proprietary data set is, we do have like well over 100,000 app developers that directly share their app analytics accounts with Apptopia. And so we're able to collect kind of real download revenue and usage data from those 100,000-plus apps that our data partners launch.

Peggy: So the numbers are impressive. Of course, the trends are the cool thing, right? Watching those trends, and you can see that in the apps. And you've seen that. I've read your reports. Your blog is full of these great articles about, you know, "This was the breakout app, or this was the great trend." So we're at the beginning of 2022. Won't go there. I'll look backwards, 2021. What surprised you most in terms of app trends, breakout hits, whatever blew your mind, Jonathan?

Jonathan: Yeah, like, one interesting thing is, I've been thinking a lot lately just about interoperability. And forgive me if I mispronounced that word, but it's uncensored, so I assume I'm allowed to make mistakes here.

John: You were perfect.

Jonathan: You know, like, if you look at what COVID did to mobile and, like, dramatically increased the use of it. So like we did a really interesting report looking at, like, Sam's Club versus Costco. And Costco always ate Sam's Club's lunch. But during the last two years, Sam's Club has invested into mobile significantly more, even just, like, stopping you from having to go to a checkout register by can actually scan your items and check out and print a receipt on your phone. Like, things like that kind of all make sense, I think, logically.

I think what I was surprised not to see more of is, like, people integrating with, like, other devices. So I'm kind of on a car play kick specifically, primarily because now, like, we're starting to go into the office a little bit. I moved into the suburbs. I spend a lot more time in my car than I'm used to. And I'm still surprised at the number of apps that have created a car experience for their mobile app.

And if you guys have read our content, you know we've been kind of boasting pretty aggressively Dunkin' Donuts because Dunkin' Donuts integrated. They were actually the first and only food chain right now to integrate with CarPlay and allow you to reorder your favourite coffee with your hands on the wheel, pay for it, and direct your car to the closest Dunkin' Donuts so you can pick up your coffee shot. And, like, when I hear that I'm like, "That is a damn good use of technology." But when you think think Starbucks, right? You think Starbucks is the innovator in that.

John: Yes.

Jonathan: So I just think it's interesting that trend hasn't, like, taken off yet.

John: That is amazing. I love that. You would expect Starbucks to have that because Starbucks has been such a leader in mobile and mobile pay and mobile wallet and all those other things. Never buy a Tesla if you like CarPlay, by the way. It's never coming.

Jonathan: Interesting.

John: But let's look ahead, 2022. We're in January, as we record this. I think it'll come out in January still. What are some of the app and mobile trends that you already see evolving?

Jonathan: Yeah, so there's two that kind of jump out to us. The first is, our team has started to see, like, what they're calling, like, group or social commerce apps. So this is like Pinduoduo and Facily, which I believe is in Latin America. And so it's like allowing people to purchase products en masse together and get, like, discounts. This feels like awesome, because, like, my wife is going through a trend where she's buying, like, used handbags. And like this whole market for Poshmark, and Rebag, and like Tradesy.

And there's all these really interesting apps that are allowing you to buy things that you want in good condition at a lower rate. And this is like a completely different vector, which is, like, you can either buy used, you can buy larger quantity. It kind of makes sense. It's what Amazon does for us, but Amazon obviously eats some of that margin. And so I think it's an interesting trend to see how…like if that kind of comes to the U.S., and I'm surprised that it's not here already honestly.

John: That's really interesting that you say that because I just did a story on Forbes about Back Market, which raised $510 million Series E on some multi-billion-dollar valuation. And that's exactly what they do. And apparently, the recommerce market is worth $40 billion annually. That's the first time I heard of the recommerce market.

Peggy: It's big also in Europe, I'd have to add, John, because it's sustainable, right? So everyone's going in for it. We have Vinted over here. I think it comes from Lithuania. Don't quote me on that one. But, you know, the whole idea is that shopping is good.

John: Oh, you can shop and buy stuff and still feel good about yourself. I get it. Okay.

Peggy: You are reusing materials. It's good for the environment. Not great maybe for the budget, but it's a good thing. It's good. And women want to hear that it's good to shop a lot. The more we shop the more we save the planet. I'm just kidding.

Jonathan: No, I like it. And, like, it does align because the second trend I would have told you is that we've seen, like, pretty, like, interesting leading indicators that augmented reality in shopping is going to be a bigger trend in 2022. So this could be anything from, like, how does a dress look on you to how does makeup, like, with what Sephora is doing with like, "Let me show you what makeup would look like on you," to taking a photo and looking at what the photo looks like on a certain spot in your wall. I think there's some interesting trends there that, like, kind of align pretty closely with what you're saying, Peggy, which is, like, they impact the perception of the experience. Like, it makes you feel good because you can see now what something looks like before you buy it, and, like, this emotional piece of the shopping, I think. I think you kind of nailed that one on the head.

Peggy: I mean, talking about articles, John, I've been also did a really good one about the social experience. So, you know, you see this all coming together with the live streaming and the shopping and the good and the purpose. I think we're onto a mega trend.

Jonathan: Spend more money in 2022. That's what I heard.

John: It is really interesting because I was going to follow up that trend question on how can app marketers and publishers take advantage of those things. And just one thing that obviously comes to mind. You've mentioned the AR pieces, and Peggy's brought in the recommerce stuff. And if you put those two together and you put sort of consumer-facing AR stuff that you can simply scan it really quickly with your any phone, any smartphone. And then somebody can say, "Oh, this is how the purse looks like," or, you know, "Oh, this is how big it is compared to me." That would be a big deal for me. I mean, am I getting a small purse? Am I getting a big purse? Sometimes in a picture, it's not that easy to tell. That could be an interesting takeaway.

Jonathan: John, I almost always buy things on Amazon that are miniature by accident. So this is like a real human need for me. Please keep me posted. I’ll invest in it and pay for it.

John: Isn't that a Wish thing? I mean, like, that's what I see all the time for Wish. “I bought this dress on Wish and it fits my child,” or something.

Peggy: Back to work, back to work. So data. Information is power. It's the source of competitive advantage. Let's talk about competitive intel for a moment. You know, if you're looking at your competitors in the space, you're a marketer, what numbers do you want to focus on when you're saying, "This is how I want to apply the data?"

Jonathan: There's lots of, like, talk about specific metrics, anything from daily, monthly active users, how much time people spend in the app? I think, like, there's only three things you really need to care about, which is how many new users, how many existing users, and what's your retention rate? And so for instance, like, you might see that app A has a growth in their user base. However, like, the fact that their user base grew at 5% may or may not be interesting depending on how much their downloads, how much their net new users grew, right?

Maybe they grew downloads at 25% and they had, when you logged on to the app... Like DoorDash. I just downloaded the DoorDash app and I just wanted to look into a restaurant and they wouldn't actually let me see their restaurant list on mobile without signing up first, even though when I go to their website, I can search there. And for me, I was like that was a mistake, because my wife was asking me a specific question, they added friction, and then I left. Whereas if the restaurant was on DoorDash and I could have seen that I would have then signed up, right?

And so the relationship that exists between growth in downloads and growth in new users is really important. And I always suggest that people analyze that by region. So, like, if you were analyzing Netflix, you wouldn't want to measure Netflix downloads in the United States because it's more or less a saturated market for Netflix. So you might be analyzing Netflix's health by looking at their retention rate domestically and their growth rate internationally, right? And, like, you'd probably do the same thing for other players like Facebook. And so, typically, like, pick the metric that makes the most sense for your business, either downloads or usage within those buckets. And then you really want to understand the relationship between them. That's typically where we see the biggest trends kind of pop up.

John: I really like that. I think that's good insight. I haven't heard it expressed that way before. What you made me think of with the DoorDash thing is the reason I never signed up for Wish… Sorry, Wish is coming up I don't know...I have no idea why. This is totally random. But the reason I've never signed up is because they want you to sign up before you can actually see those products. And I'm sure that's a very deliberate choice. And I'm sure that it works for them because they keep doing it and others do it as well. But for me, it's like, "No, until I can see what's in there, I'm not going to actually subscribe to your service or sign up." That is pretty interesting.

Let's talk about competitive intel and opportunities. We, of course, see a lot of big studios, the big publishing houses out there who are always looking at different niches, maybe different games, maybe different types of apps as well. Can you use competitive intel to find and identify those new opportunities? How do you do that?

Jonathan: Yeah, so I'll maybe just start with gaming. So one of the biggest kind of really positive developments in competitive intelligence, and I'll just speak from Apptopia's perspective, but we're not the only person who does this, is we now actually found a way to programmatically identify the gameplay of an app, which might be like hidden object apps, bubble shooter apps, match three apps. We're able to identify intellectual property that's in the app. Is it Minions? Is it Marvel Universe? Is it Harry Potter? Etc. And these like, I'm going to call them kind of, like, just segments of data or like additional classifiers, they allow you to analyze data in a different way, which is like, "Hey, I'm going to build an endless runner." Am I more likely to have a higher average revenue per user if it's, like, Harry Potter running or Mickey Mouse or a Minion, right?

And we all kind of smile about it, but, like, these audiences are different and like in different periods of time these audiences have different levels of engagements and different economic thresholds. And so, like, even just your ability to analyze intellectual property today is through the roof. We find that more often than not, intellectual property is something that gaming studios hold near and dear, meaning they typically have some, like, skin or theme and they're just trying to figure out, "All right, like, I have these characters and I love these little furry monsters. And like, what is the game mechanic that people want to play? Or what game mechanic more closely ties with my monetization strategy?"

So maybe if you're a huge studio, you have huge leverage with ad networks, you want to monetize via advertising, there's probably specific game mechanics, specific ways that you can monetize your intellectual property that lean more toward that, versus ones that create friction around maybe player development and toward building or, like, speeding up time to some benefit for the user. And so being able to look at games differently... And I think we'll get to this later in the conversation. But, like, games are now starting to have lots of functionality inside them, and they're using different functionality for different reasons. And so, understanding what gameplays are popular in certain times, I think it's going to become really important for people to engage with their audience. Because gamers are gamers, right? There's so much competition for attention you need to not only have the right gameplay, but it needs to be relevant at the right time that people are interested in that.

John: I played Temple Run for years, and I have Subway Surfers as well. And you just made me want an endless runner game with a Minion that has a little bit of fun in it with the Minion doing some slightly evil things occasionally in addition to running forever. So there we go.

Jonathan: It's called Minion Rush, by the way. It's like very, very similar to that.

John: It exists.

Jonathan: My nephew loves it.

Peggy: Well, obviously, you can grow through knowing the mechanics. And that's really cool that that's one way of framing the data that you're doing. But, you know, growth is also... Yeah, it's impacted by marketing attribution. That's been a massive issue in 2021. It's going to be with us for 2022, maybe forever. What are some of the challenges you've seen around attributing growth, app growth to specific factors?

Jonathan: Yeah, everything's getting more blended, and, like, I don't know if you guys share the same like agita or like heartburn that comes from just saying the word AI. Like, it bothers me nowadays. I don't even like talking about it because it feels so cliche already. But, like, my interpretation of that is that people are just blending more signals. So I'll just give you like one example, which is one of the biggest ways that you can grow as an app developer is based on your organic search rank. So when people are searching specific keywords, how high up does your app rank? For people who are less familiar with this, this would be like Google search rank, right? And we call it ASO, App Store Optimization in mobile.

But the amount of factors that Apple and Google are now publicly incorporating into this, it all becomes circular. So like, your ratings and your reviews impact your search rank. Your downloads impact your search rank. And so all of these things that you're doing, they all have some circular impact on how you acquire users. And so it does feel like you need to have some success in order to get more success. And so, you know, we've seen this a lot with advertising is you want to spend money on advertising to just get the engine started, right? Like, just get the juices flowing and then I'll be good.

But I think my advice there, and I apologize if you didn't ask for me to give my advice yet, but my advice would be like I think product has never mattered more to marketing is my, like, maybe annoying answer to marketers out there. But, like, I think collaboration between product and marketing is going to be essential for the success for user acquisition in the coming year too.

Peggy: So I'd like to follow up with that. You've talked about the challenges. One is it's blended, right? And there's tons to look at. But then you also want to know when you are succeeding. And success is fleeting, right? You think, "Oh, I'm up and I'm featured, and then, you know, it's a golden ticket.” And it's not. It's fleeting success. So what is it that makes a spike in numbers really matter? So when is a spike in numbers just a blip?

Jonathan: You did kind of lead nicely to that which is like a featured spot would be an example of a blip. A press article would be an example of a blip. We're seeing more and more like Instagram influencers and TikTok influencers, actually having, like, new story like impacts on app downloads. Those typically feel like blips to me. Not to over optimize on, like, keyword search, like ASO, but when Apple and Google's algorithms think that your app is of higher quality, it is more sustainable, right?

And so this is like super crazy, but we are seeing this trend in our data right now where the Frontier app, like the airline Frontier, it is dramatically increasing its search rank for the keyword United Airlines, which is just like a super interesting trend that like someone at both of those companies should be aware of. But it went from being the 15th ranked app to like the 4th or 5th ranked app for one of their competitors brand names. That means that Apple and Google are actually seeing users search for United Airlines and download the Frontier app.

Maybe there's some trend going on in travel that I'm just not an expert on and I'm not aware of but, like, that is like a non-blip. Like, I bet you that's going to generate awareness and user acquisition and ticket sales for Frontier for some period of time to come. And so, again, like investment into things that the algorithm views as positive, they get your search rank up, even if that's a higher volume of keywords or it's for a really important keyword getting higher, just increasing like the breadth of how you can acquire users.

John: That is a marketer's worst nightmare right there is that somebody is searching for you on your own brand and they are choosing something else in the search results that's coming up for them. That's really interesting, and I would want to know that immediately as a marketer and find out what I can do to change that.

Jonathan: Right. I have no idea. Like, genuinely, I haven't dove deep enough, but, like, I bet you there's some route issue or product issue. Again, in the collaboration between product and marketing there's some deficiency outside of just the app's name or what's on, like, their public app store page which is causing people to do that. And then a good marketer will, like, apply pressure, right? Like, twist the knife once it's in there. And so, again, I think collaboration between those functions is going to be crucial in digital just in general moving forward.

John: Among the many things that people learn on "Mobile Heroes Uncensored," is that marketers need knives, and they twist them occasionally.

Jonathan: Yes. Yes. Well put.

John: Let's go here. We're going into 2022. And you may have already blown your thunder here and given one of your tips. What are your top three tips for mobile marketers heading into the new year?

Jonathan: I'll give one kind of big one, which is, like, I think people need to accept what's happening with attribution. And so like the attribution industry has changed. And I see so much content today that says like, "Well, like, we've created a new version of this." And I'm not going to go like super deep into that because I'm sure you guys have produced a lot of content on the topic. But I think when something goes away, people just try and find the thing that's like the closest to the thing that went away, versus accepting that change has happened and like embracing a new style.

So I am not a mobile marketer. Like, I'm just, like, an entrepreneur, okay. And what we've seen be really successful for ad networks, and we’ve worked with a lot of ad networks, is, like, investing more into contextual advertising. And so an example of that would be, and I'm just making up fake examples here, guys. But like, an example of that would be, like, imagine you're Angry Birds and you find out that, like, people who play Angry Birds also play like Tetris, which is like a very different type of puzzle game than Angry Birds. But you find that there's a relationship between, like, people who like to, you know, play an Angry Birds-style puzzle and people who like an actual shape and objects type of puzzle. You could actually take that, use this type of like gameplay tagging that exists in industry today and take all the other apps that look like Tetris, and you can actually feed that as a whitelist into your ad network and start to, like, advertise not just based on what attribution is saying is working but also based on, like, user muscle memory, right?

Like I'll never forget Uber... I don't know if this still exists, but, like, Uber found that people played puzzle games while in Ubers, right? And so they actually like bought out a ton of EAs inventory for a couple of weeks as a result of, like, wanting to acquire as many Tetris users as possible, because they found out that that's what people were doing when they were in the back of a car. And like that was just a completely random data point that somebody stumbled on, and they probably acquired a lot of users.

And so I guess my biggest advice is, there's a lot of really creative people who have access to a lot of capital in mobile marketing. And I think we need to just like accept that things are different and start to, like, identify new creative ways to sustainably acquire users, versus just trying to like recreate what was there a little bit differently and hold on to it for as long as we can.

John: Well, we've got the knife. Now we've got the psychologist couch here and we're laying back, "Hey, accept it. Change has happened and move on." Love it, Peggy.

Peggy: Well, I do like it, John, because it's, like, yeah, frame it differently. What are they doing while they're using your app? Or what are some of those behaviour points and signposts to where I could know, a little bit of guerilla marketing, a little bit of smart marketing. Take over the other app title, take over the other, you know, games in Uber. You know, what do you do when you eat? What are we doing when we're watching TV or Netflix or what have you? Smart, very smart. Let our behaviour be the guide.

Jonathan: State the most uneducated comment, at least of mine, since the show started, which is, like, it's just old marketing, right? Isn't this just what TV marketing was? Like, we're just reverting back. Like, this is like bell bottoms were out, they're in, they're out again. I don't know. But, like, you know, like, I think we're just coming back to it. And what made me think about it is the amount of mobile apps, like, it's like NFL playoffs in the U.S., which is, like, a major, major TV ratings event. And the amount of crypto mobile apps that have been advertised is insane. Like, the amount of actual mobile app advertising that's happening on TV now is insane. And it's because they realize that like people who watch sports typically like gambling, people who gamble typically like crypto, and now there are, like, multibillion dollar stadium deals with crypto and advertising their apps. And so, it's just old-fashioned contextual advertising. And I think we need to, like, roll around in it a little bit again.

John: Excellent. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for taking some time to spend with us. I really do appreciate it. I appreciate your insights as well. Always great to dive into the data and to dive into a different perspective than some of the ones we've been hearing in the past.

Jonathan: Yeah, thanks for having it with me and putting up with my ridiculous analogies.

Peggy: They were fresh, enjoyable, Jonathan, a little bit unconventional. I love challenging conventions. That's what we did. We just said, "Hey, the way forward is the way back to old marketing." You know, there you go. We're all Don Draper at heart.

John: And I want my three Martini lunch. I hate Martini so I don't know why I said that. But anyways, thank you so much, Jonathan. For everybody who is watching or listening, this is "Mobile Heroes Uncensored." We've been talking with Jonathan Kay from Apptopia. He's actually the CEO and founder there. You know, that's kind of important, I guess, right, Peggy? And Peggy Anne Salz is my co-host and my name is John Koetsier. Thank you for listening or watching and talk to you soon.

Jan 26, 2022

How Wattpad Boosted Programmatic Ad Revenue Substantially

90 million writers and readers connect on global storytelling platform Wattpad. Daniel Kenny-Godoy, Wattpad’s Interim Head of Programmatic & Ad Ops, boosted revenue substantially.

But how?

In this Mobile Heroes Uncensored Origin Story, hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat with Daniel about ad operations’ biggest challenges and opportunities, how to scale ad revenue while maintaining a great user experience, and the increasingly important topic of contextual vs behavioral targeting.

Plus, we get his top 3 tips for ad monetization in 2022.

34 mins

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: As a buyer, I'm incentivized to find the best performing inventory and the best performing network. But as a seller, I'm incentivized to ensure that I'm trying to capture as much of spend as possible. So in a world where, for example, and I make this argument internally, if we don't work with a Unity and a buyer that is, you know, spending a tremendous of revenue on acquiring users that we have, and they decide to move all of their budget to Unity, we're not going to see any of that money.

John Koetsier: Hello, and welcome to Mobile Heroes Uncensored, where we kind of act like idiots so that you can look like geniuses. Today, we're chatting about ad monetization. It’s kind of a big deal, right? It's a major component in the majority of apps and games path to profitability.

This is an origins stories episode, where we go in-depth, one-on-one with one specific mobile marketing expert. Last time, we chatted about incrementality. Today, ad monetization and ad ops. Peggy, who are we talking to?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well you are right John, a new kind of guest, a type of show, we are welcoming Daniel Kenny-Godoy. He is director of ad operations and programmatic at Wattpad. Wattpad is a global entertainment company leading social storytelling so it's a platform for that as well.

He has overseen 15x increase in programmatic revenue across the platform. John, that's why we have him here, that's one of the reasons. Ad ops is totally his space. He's worked in digital media and ad monetization for over 12 years, with sites such as Toronto Star, The Verge,

John Koetsier: Who’s the NFL? Ever heard of them?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, who’s the NFL, who’s the Toronto Star? And Verge which I love, Verge rocks.

Peggy Anne Salz: He is also passionate about community building, we’ll talk about that, because within the ad space he has also pursued a mission. He has helped co-found the ad op subreddit community, which has grown to become one of the largest ad ops destinations on the internet. So, welcome, Daniel.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Hi. Thank you so much for having me, Peggy and John.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Glad to have you. Gotta check out that subreddit. I love Reddit. So, let's start at the beginning.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yes, it's great.

John Koetsier: How did you happen to fall into mobile ad monetization?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah. So, it's a funny story. So, I actually, originally, worked in backing and finance, so learning about lending and investing. And, so I moved to Toronto back in 2006 or so. And I fell back in with a number of my university friends. And a few of them had sort of gotten into the marketing and digital space back when, you know, all of this stuff was first being established.

And just socially, just through meeting people over time, being a technical person, I'm always sort of, you know, looking at technology and trying to understand how stuff works. There had been this, like, weird situation where it's, like, every couple weeks I would be at, you know, a gathering or a bar and it's 2:00 in the morning, we're sort of all sitting down having drinks, and I'd end up in these conversations that just all ended up moving in this direction where people were like, "Man, you gotta get out of finance, man. Digital is, like, where it's at. There's so much opportunity. It's growing. It's so much more fun."

So, at some point a, you know, interesting opportunity came up for me to kind of make a lateral move in my career and I said, "You know what? This feels like it maybe has a little bit more long-term opportunity for me and it's a little bit more my scene." So, I moved. And, you know, within two months, I was like, "Yeah, this is totally, like, my job."

John Koetsier: I'm glad it worked out. I mean, like, I wouldn't assume that being in banking is, like, you know, great, amazing, huge amounts of fun. So, I think you made the right move. But I'm glad it worked out and two months later you felt like, "Hey, this was the right thing for me." Maybe before we get into some of the biggest challenges, how do you define ad ops?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah, so I think it's one of those things that people don't typically go to school for. And it's one of those, like, hidden jobs that exist, you know, in the digital space. The way I often talk about it, both internally and just sort of conversationally to help people understand, is, you know, my team and the work that I do is really spending the time working with the technology and tools that help power the advertising that runs across the internet.

So, in my particular case, I work with Wattpad as an ap and a website. So, my team is really responsible for managing all of the ad campaigns and tools and really make sure those ads kinda show up and behave the way that they're supposed to. Outside of that, I think, and this sort of falls within, sort of, the broader ad ops sphere, is you have all of the programmatic yield, optimization across all the different, like, revenue sources that sort of power advertising, you know, across all of these properties. So, it's pretty interesting.

Peggy Anne Salz: If I can follow up for a moment, I just wanna also understand, because we talked about this in prep as well, ad ops has two sides in your case. You know, you're talking about, hey, I wanna deal with the publishers, make certain they get the most out of the inventory that you have. And then, there's also optimizing the campaigns. Are both of those within your remit?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: For my specific role, yes. The way that we talk about it is that we have sort of, like, two sides to our core ads business. So, we have, on one side, we have a direct sales team that's going out to market. They're pitching to various advertisers and brands, you know, to try and run various campaigns and programs across Wattpad. That's sort of one side. So, I have a team that, you know, they're lovely and they run various campaigns, and they make sure everything delivers, and we're able to, you know, fulfill all the requirements of those various campaigns.

Then there's sort of another side, which is what we call the programmatic or yield side. So throughout… And this is what you typically see on many apps in the space. You typically have a number of different, call them, you know, ad technology partners that are integrated through various STKs into your app. And they basically are responsible for sending you ads when you ask for ads. So, all of those systems are sort of designed to sort of integrate in a very holistic fashion.

You then sort of have to work through all the detail reporting across, like, what you're seeing from each different partner. And then make decisions on, you know, how we are gonna decide on who gets to monetize what component of inventory, and when, and how. So, it's a lot of, you know, analytical work. It's a lot of, like, digging and technical troubleshooting to make sure everything functions the way that you expect it to.

And then, lastly, I'd say that… I mean, and this is, I think, pretty common for the industry. There's always something new to learn. So, it's an endless barrel of things to learn.

John Koetsier: Something always breaks.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Something always breaks. That's right.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, you're sitting in the middle of that. I think it's interesting to understand the full aspects of what ad ops is and where you sit. So, what do you find the most challenging in the middle of those three places that you're watching?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: So, I think, when I think about the challenges that we have, or I think ultimately, there's a couple things. So firstly, is there's so much technology that exists in this space. Whether it be on the publisher side, on the monetization side, you know, on the reporting and tooling, you know, side of the business. So, I think just keeping up with just everything that's available in the space is, you know, is something that can be a challenge.

You know, the industry is always changing. You know, I was thinking back, you know, a couple of years ago. It's, like, six months ago, we were dealing with, you know, what would the impact of iOS 14.5 and sort of the loss of IDFA and all that stuff, what would that actually have in terms of, you know, the impact to our daily revenue?

And then, today, it's, like, you know, only a couple months later, we're like, "Oh, the platform that we're using to run most of our advertising," which is MoPub, has been acquired by AppLovin and there's a huge migration that many app publishers are going through right now in order to find the, you know, the right, you know, mediation platform for their needs.

So, it's, like, the amount of problems that come up are vast but the way that you're tackling and solving problems is certainly something that, you know, you always have to keep an eye on. And then, the last thing I'd say, you know, this is something I always try to be mindful, regardless of who I'm working with, whether it be my team or any of the external partners I work with.

But the knowledge across the industry is extremely fragmented. The account manager that I might be working with at a partner like a Vungle, they might be an expert in their particular space, but not understand the nuances that I'm dealing with, you know, as a non-gaming app.

Or, you know, the tooling that we might need for advanced reporting and analytics might not specifically apply for our use case, so we might have to, like, do a lot of translating. So, there's always sort of, like, trying to navigate, you know, through a lot of those challenges, which is tricky.

John Koetsier: That is not surprising to me at all, because ad tech continues to be super fragmented. I mean, we've seen increasing consolidation. Right? You talked about it. Right? MoPub being bought by AppLovin, right?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah, for sure.

John Koetsier: So, we're seeing more things being brought together, but there's still so many cases where an ad is going through five, six, seven different layers, waterfalls, auctions, you know, before it actually hits the place where somebody's eyeballs see it. There's so many complexities there, it does not shock me at all.

Maybe let's dive into that, actually, and talk about that. It's become so much more complex programmatic, right? What do you see is different in programmatic now versus a few years ago?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: So, I think, for good or for bad, the level of complexity and scale has continued to increase. I was in a meeting, you know, with a few of our senior leaders a couple of…maybe about a year or two ago. You know, I said, "Hey, guys, we're doing great. You know, no questions. We're all super happy. We need to take a moment to recognize that this stuff is only gonna continue to get harder.

The amount of data we have access to and what kinds of decisions we can make off of that data will continue to expand. The revenue targets that we wanna be able to achieve are gonna continue to go up. And, you know, all of the changes that are taking place within the industry are gonna continue to, you know, to become more and more complicated."

Privacy is a good example. It's, like, on one side, you have, you know, one country of the world passes a law. It has to… You know, you have to comply in very specific ways. Guess what? Another country passes another law. Their interpretation is, like, totally different. So now you're actually fragmenting your experience and the way that you approach building solutions to ensure that you are doing, you know, what's right by the requirements of the various countries that we have to operate within.

John Koetsier: There's a bunch of things in that, right? I mean, we've seen programmatic starting to evolve from something that used identifiers. Whether that was a cookie, or an Android ad ID, or an IDFA, that tracked behavior of eyeballs, devices, people. And we're starting to see a move towards contextual. How's that working? How's that going?

We're still seeing some level of fingerprinting in the industry as well. That's not as durable an ID, obviously, right? It's more fragmentation. But where are you seeing this in the shift to contextual and do you see that getting better? And do you see targeting and being quite good there at some point?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah, so I think… When I take a step back and I think about it, you know, I mean, certainly, you can get into the weeds, and you can talk about there's all of this loss that's gonna happen. What's gonna happen to all of this revenue? I kinda take a step back and I try to think a little bit more broadly.

It's, like, ultimately, what are we trying to do here? The ap ecosystem, specifically, exists on people and companies designing experiences that people love. Whether they be a reading app like Wattpad or a fun game like, I don't know, some new, insert name of random game here, but it's, like, ultimately, the power of the experience and what that looks like is what's most important for people.

Now, as it pertains to ads, the way that I look at it is the ideas that are historically used were ultimately not designed to extract that value that, you know, the advertising industry has gotten. On the upside, you have users that are becoming more and more aware of how their data is being used, you know, what's actually happening from a privacy perspective. So, their expectation is changing.

And the industry needs to evolve in order to ensure that, you know, we're doing right by users. Like, at the end of the day, me, as a user, I need to understand what I'm actually agreeing to when I'm entering into a terms of service or the particular, you know, a particular product.

I hope that, you know, the industry evolves in such a way that that relationship can continue to become more and more transparent and just honest in terms of, you know, what that trade-off looks like for users. The way I often talk about it is, what we're actually doing in the ad space is we're…it's an exchange of value.

So, in the case of, like, a Wattpad, users are coming to find stories and read interesting books. And the exchange that's actually happening is you're getting, you know, hours and hours of endless entertainment in exchange for having to, you know, watch a couple of ads here or there.

John Koetsier: Yeah. Maybe one more question on this, on programmatic, and then I think Peggy's got a question about how you boosted the revenue there.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Sure.

John Koetsier: We've seen platforms change how they're operating in the era of consolidation and in the era of privacy as well. So, for instance, Reddit closed off external access to its inventory, right, last year. Do you see that continuing? Do you see that being a problem for programmatic, that sources' high-quality traffic might be closed off into little pocket or big pockets, right, you know, very large pockets in various places but you can't access them?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: So, I think, in taking a step back and thinking about Reddit, I mean, you know, hats off to them, right? I think that you really run into a scale issue. You know, Reddit ultimately had the scale to be able to justify, you know, that behavior. And, I mean, I personally see nothing wrong with it. I think that, like, the impact, from a user perspective, ultimately, you know, everything aside, is you're able to actually control an experience and create something that feels very holistic to what you're trying to build through your platform, right?

So, you know, thinking about a Facebook, or a Reddit, or Pinterest would be a good example as well, those are unique experiences. So, they're actually able to invest in doubling down on creating an experience that is pleasant, you know, for users. So, it's like, I look at it like, you know, I think it's great, ultimately.

Peggy Anne Salz: More power to you, Daniel. Because I'm an experience person, too. No, seriously. I did want to get to that point because, at the end of the day, it is a business, right? You need ads for revenue but you're also, as you said, you're trying to define and create great experiences, pleasant experiences. Some ad free, maybe come native in there. Who knows? But how do you balance this? Because they are conflicting.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah. So, I mean, so the first thing I'd say, shout out to our product team. I think that, ultimately, you wanna start at the beginning. Now, the one thing I'd say, and this is probably the biggest one that I've had at Wattpad, is sort of the difference between being social oriented and the difference between actually, like, developing a robust strategy and a vision that fits with what you're trying to sort of manage.

In the case of a Wattpad, it's a reading app. People are coming to read books. How many, like, video ads do you wanna watch while you're reading a book? Like, what is that, right? So, it's, like, I think, you know, for us, a lot of the power, the, you know, the growth is really tons and tons of experimentation.

Spending time with our users, talking to them, getting feedback, looking at, you know, sentiment in analysis, running experiments to understand how smaller changes in experiences and what ads look and feel like impact the behavior or our users across the platform.

And going back to that, like, value comment from earlier, is ultimately, like, is what you're doing, you know, driven by that, like, value exchange? Is that value exchange honest? When I think about, you know, it's… I think that what we've done that's been really, really interesting is we sort of started from looking at, you know, what was the vision of the product we're actually trying to build?

How do we make sure that we can, you know, build the right internal metrics that aren't necessarily revenue driven, that help us understand, you know, what metrics need to be true in order to drive value for our users? And it might be things like, you know, how much time people spend reading, or how often they're coming back to the app, or are they writing enough, or any of those sort of components.

So then, when we're talking about revenue, knowing that advertising, in particular, if not done properly, can detract from some of those, you know, very important metrics, then it's a matter of just figuring out, like, how do you find that balance? How do you make sure that, you know, you either integrate ads in a sensible way or you even spend the time to do something like communicate to your users around what the value of ads actually meets?

So, we spent a ton of time doing that. The other thing I'd say that's been very, very, you know, crucial in terms of how we've been able to grow is that we've, over time, developed relationships everywhere. I'm talking I've spent time developing relationships with every site I can think of, any app I can think of, any monetization partner across the world.

Like, you know, as a global platform for Wattpad, we have tons of inventory in the U.S., which is great. Pretty straightforward to monetize. But we also have a huge, huge, huge community in Indonesia. So, part of those conversations have been, "Hey, like, I get what's happening in the States. I understand the tons of investment there, very easy to figure out. Tell me about Indonesia. Tell me about, you know, the Philippines. Like, how does programmatic work in some of those regions?"

So being able to take a global approach in terms of what you're trying to solve has also been very helpful for us.

John Koetsier: Well, apparently, you've done that very, very successfully because, as Peggy mentioned right off the top, you boosted programmatic ad revenue 15x across Wattpad. How'd you do that?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: So, I think, at the beginning, we spent a lot of time doing, like, classic. And again, like, I'm talking like a product person here, but classic discovery. You know, getting into the weeds around, like, you know, what are the things, from a programmatic perspective, that we believe that we can invest in and feel like a good, robust business opportunity for us to invest in? Where do we think the industry is going? How do we make sure that we can, like, you know, be thoughtful around what that looks like?

And the second thing that we did, you know, and I'm a big, big advocate here, is build your systems and your infrastructure with scale in mind. So, I sometimes feel like a broken record here. But when I look at the campaigns that we're running, or the ad units that we have to, like, name across all of our different partners, it's like, are we building, you know, naming conventions and reporting configurations in a way that actually gets us access to the data that we need in order to make, like, intelligent decisions, right?

You know, at a leadership level, it's a matter of having conversations early on to say, "Okay, like, what business metrics and, you know, what do you guys need in order to, you know, make the right investment decisions across the org?" You know, so always having those types of conversations to make sure that, you know, you can go as wide and as deep as you need to given the needs of the business, but also try to anticipate, you know, what problems are gonna come up in the future and how can you make reasonable, you know, trade-offs around, you know, whatever those parts of investments are gonna look like?

John Koetsier: It sounds tremendously difficult, because it sounds like you have to go right down to the very bottom level of all the details. What are the naming conventions? How do these come in? How do we report on them? How do we aggregate them up? How do we sum them, total them, all that stuff? All the way up to the very highest points.

What's our strategy and what does that mean for product? What bought you the biggest return? What made the biggest performance difference for you? Was there any one or maybe two, three things?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah. So luckily, I mean, this doesn't happen overnight. You start simple and then you scale, right? So, it's about making sure that you're scaling appropriately. In terms of the things that, you know, drove the biggest differences, the first thing I would say and, believe it or not, this was genuinely a surprise to me, is that your mix of partners that you're working with can actually be more robust than it is.

Like, we got to a stage where I was, like, I can't imagine that integrating ironSource would actually bring us incremental revenue that was meaningful, and it happened. So, I think that, like, ultimately, it's like there's surprising incremental value in making sure that you have a very robust, you know, complex, like, stack that's, like, really functioning at a high level.

The second thing that I'd say, and this probably is no surprise to any conversation that you've had, is spend the time to go deep on the data. The more that we do it, the more that we learn. The more that we do it, the more questions that we ask. Right? But being able to go deep with the data is ultimately, you know, it leads to decisions. It leads to more questions. It leads to investments that you could potentially make.

I've been lucky to grow my team and to bring on some really smart people. And as a result of having more people on my team, I've been able to say, "Okay, great. How do we invest in building out more complex waterfalls that are indicative of the data that we're seeing across the world?" Right?

Sometimes, something like a price floor in countries that are under monetized, simply making some changes there can help, you know, to drive revenue. We have done optimizations of Wattpad that have literally had MoPub come to us afterwards and say, "I feel like our features don't work in the way that you guys are using it and it's indicative to us that we need to change how we do things."

John Koetsier: Wow.

Peggy Anne Salz: Learning from you.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah, well, you know, we try.

Peggy Anne Salz: I have to stop for just a minute, John, because, you know, I don't know about you, but I've been talking to a lot of people, you know, on our show, yes, but around the industry and it was all about, "You know what? Our data is toast. Let's cut back on the number of partners we're working with. Let's go from, like, you know, 14 to 3," is what I was hearing. And you're saying, "No, work with more partners. Be more robust. Build it out more." It's just take that risk, be brave, be bold, be big, right?

John Koetsier: It is a different side of the market, right? And we're talking to ad ops and programmatic right now where he's trying to monetize revenue. And so, if you're looking for mediation partners, for instance, right, then that's a slightly different challenge than looking for UA.

And certainly, for UA, especially in the era of iOS 14.5 and 15, if you spread everything and you've got too many ad campaigns going, too many campaign IDs going, you need volume in each of them to get it past Apple's privacy thresholds, right? So, there's some challenges there. But it is really interesting, Peggy. I 100% agree. It's a different way of looking at the world.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: I can probably help to smooth that out a bit. So, I look at… So, first of all, it's important to understand, as a Wattpad, we're massive. We're literally everywhere, right?

Peggy Anne Salz: Mm, okay.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Now, as a publisher, all we can do is have users come use our platform, send our ad requests, and then get responses, right? If we limit the number of partners that we're using, we're essentially limiting the amount of…

Peggy Anne Salz: Good choice.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: …opportunity that's out there. As a buyer, if I'm a buyer, I'm like, "Man, I'm buying on, you know, MoPub, AppLovin, Vungle or, Facebook." Like, it can get confusing, or challenging, or, you know, difficult to measure, you know, who's performing best. Right? As a buyer, I'm incentivized to find the best performing inventory in the best performing network.

But as a seller, I'm incentivized to ensure that I'm trying to capture as much of spend as possible. So, in a world where, for example, and I made this argument internally, if we don't work a Unity and a buyer that is, you know, spending a tremendous amount of revenue on acquiring users that we have, and they decide to move all of their budget to Unity, we're not going to see any of that money.

So, you know, we need to kind of make sure that we're being, you know, very broad in our approach to capture as much opportunity as possible.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, you raise a lot of questions. We've answered some of them, but not only on this show here. You answer the questions of the community. You have this amazing Reddit community. The biggest one there is out there for ad ops. Tell us about that. Where the idea came from, the inspiration to stay.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: So, this is actually pretty funny, because I've been on Reddit for a number of years, and I think I started probably back in 2008. Like, it's been a while. So, I worked for a company a number of years ago and we went through a period where our team had grown tremendously and we'd actually gone through a cycle where, over about six or eight months, where we hired, I think it was, like, six or seven interns.

And I'd noticed, as Reddit as a platform was growing, and I was spending more time on it, that one, there was very little discussion around sort of the state of ad ops, which was obviously an industry that I was involved in. And we basically went through this hiring run. Hired a bunch of young people. And they were all fresh out of school. They were all, you know, very interested in technology.

And I noticed that, you know, after getting to know a bunch of these people, that the one thing that they tended to have in common was they were all on Reddit. So, I kind of put two and two together, and I said, "Huh, so you're telling me that young, tech savvy, exciting, interesting people are all on Reddit?"

And this whole, like, domain that, I mean, you know, people got really…the people that we hired were pretty excited about working in digital. You know, ultimately, they didn't have enough avenues to learn. So, you know, we kinda say, "Hey, guys. What if we tried to build out this community?" Somebody had already created the community. It had 20 people subscribed to it. It wasn't very active.

So, I was able to connect with them and we had a couple of calls in person. And we said, "Hey, like, what do we need to do in order to, like, try and build up this community?" So, I sort of, you know, created little OKRs for the team to say, "Hey, guys, like, you have to look here once a week and want, you know, want you guys to try and find an article that, you know, it's talking about the space and you think is interesting, and try and post that way."

I would say it worked and it didn't work. Some people were more interested in it than others. But I think that, like, ultimately, you know, the way that things kinda grow over time is, you know, going back to that complexity point, is that the technology, and the complexity, and the scale of it continue to change as programmatic really started to take center stage across the industry.

So, you know, the community, as a result, ended up just growing. More people had more questions. There were more gaps in knowledge. So, it became a hub for people to meet and connect around questions that they had. You know, so I'm really happy that we've been able to build a really positive community that's curious.

John Koetsier: I think that's super cool. And I guess, if you're looking for new talent, it would be a great place to be and to hang out and see who's got smart ideas and who's sharing interesting thoughts, and everything like that. And who has the right answers. Well, our time is coming to a close, but we ask all of our guests for their top three tips in their area of expertise. Yours, of course, ad monetization. What are your top three tips for ad monetization in 2022?

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Yeah, that's a great question. The number one tip, I'd say, is always be curious. You know, spend time asking questions. Spend time asking why questions. Particularly, if you're maybe more junior, you're trying to, you know, figure out, like, how to learn. Like, I wanna know what's happening. I wanna know why things are happening. If you spend the time really trying to go deep and understand, like, how all this tech is working, you'll generally, you know, be on the right track.

The second thing is, is that I think it's really, really important to keep up-to-date with what's happening in the space. So, whether it be, you know, talking to people, spending time to, you know, do the research and understand, you know, what's actually, like, going on in the space. On the app side, specifically, with this MoPub acquisition, what we're seeing is we're seeing a lot of these mediation platforms are they're basically saying, "Hey, there's an opportunity here to listen to apps in a totally different way, build new features, you know, introduce new opportunities that bring more value to app monetization tools."

So, you know, ensuring that you're spending time, like, learning about, you know, where this stuff is going. You know, talking to these different platforms. You know, mastering the building really, really robust platform if it's a market. You know, ironSource is there trying to make sure that they continue to remain competitive. You know, Google is obviously Google. You know, so making sure that, you know, we're focused on, you know, driving as much value as possible.

And then, the third thing, I would say, and this is a soft challenge to my team if they decide to watch this, push your partners for more insights. Push them. I don't believe that we get enough information. I don't believe that we understand enough about what's actually happening here. So in a world where you have an app that's making millions of dollars a year, if you don't know exactly why that's happening with as much detail as possible, then your revenue is ultimately gonna be at risk.

So, spending the time with your partners to figure out what advertisers value in your inventory, what's working for them, what's not working for them, why is it not working, how is it working? All of those things will help you make more informed decisions or help you invest in growing the, you know, the experiences and features within your app that translate to, you know, stronger revenue gains in the future.

So, I mean, right? I guess it's, like, it's one of those, like, bottomless pits that I'm always, like, making sure that my team is on top of.

John Koetsier: That's a really tough one. It's when things are going well, then the temptation is, "Hey, it's going well. Nothing's happening. Why dig too deep?" Right? But you're saying, "Hey, dig in. Find out why it's going well."

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: That's right.

John Koetsier: And make sure that we know as much as we can so we can continue it and maybe even make it better. Love it.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: That's right.

John Koetsier: Well, wonderful. Peggy, I think I would be on the same page as you saying we've loved having Daniel for our guest. It was super interesting, super informative, and a different picture in what we've been looking at for the past year.

Peggy Anne Salz: And also, I was gonna say that it's the bravery to ask the questions. I thought before that was, you know, don't do it. But I guess you guys are on speed dial with your partners. So, it's a good thing. It's a good thing.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: We have Slack channels running with everybody. By 10:00 every Monday, Chee, on my team, he's, "Hey, guys. I'm seeing over the weekend you overperformed what you normally do. Why?"

John Koetsier: I don't know. Keep it going. And anyways, Daniel, thank you so much for being our guest. Really do appreciate it. For everybody who's watching or listening, hey, if you're listening, there's also a video and it's on YouTube. Check it out. If you're watching, there's the podcast. Subscribe to that. If you're a mobile hero, hey, Peggy wants to hear from you. I wanna hear from you.

Connect with us: LinkedIn, Twitter, wherever. We love shining a light on mobile marketers with super powers, like Daniel. And get in touch with us. We'd love to chat with you.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Thank you very much for having me.

John Koetsier: It's been great. Thank you so much.

Daniel Kenny-Godoy: Thanks.

Peggy Anne Salz: Thank you, Daniel.

Jan 19, 2022

Why Incrementality Is Like Heaven

Is incrementality the answer to mobile marketing measurement’s crisis?

Let’s be honest: mobile marketers exist on last-touch attribution, whether they’re using GAID, SKAdNetwork, or probabilistic methodologies. But declining signal on iOS has led some to suggest that incrementality is the answer. And there is a place for it.

Today’s guest Moshi Blum of Beach Bum (owned by Voodoo) has been there and done that, and he has the scars to prove it. Armed with hard-won knowledge gained from leading user acquisition at Viber and being a country general manager for Adjust, Blum shares what he’s learned about incrementality and measurement with hosts Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier.

Plus, Blum gives us his three tips for mobile marketing success in 2022.

And we see the youngest mobile hero ever: Golan, who’s 4 months old!

29 min

John Koetsier: How is incrementality like heaven and maybe a total failure at the same time? Hello and welcome to “Mobile Heroes Uncensored” where our super-smart guests give you cheat codes for growing mobile apps. My name is John Koetsier, my co-host is Peggy Anne Salz. And today, we're talking about incrementality. And apparently, it's kind of like heaven but also somewhat hellish at the very same time. Plus, we're also going to chat about what to do when incrementality fails, and a ton of other insight on measuring mobile growth campaigns. Peggy, who's our expert?

Jan 12, 2022

Top 3 Tips for Growing Your Mobile Marketing Career

Everyone wants to grow. Today we’re learning from an expert, Vishal Korlipara.

Vishal leads growth at Future, the fitness startup, and has held roles at Morgan Stanley, Credit Karma, and Intuit. He’s essentially not just a growth expert, but an expert at ending jobs successfully, transitioning to new roles successfully, and initiating new stages in his career.

Hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat with Vishal about ending well, when to switch jobs, how to start well, and Vishal’s unconventional but clearly effective top three tips for advancing your career in growth marketing in the coming year.

28 min

Vishal Korlipara: The growth space is very specific, but it's like, hey, what are the channels? What are our efficiencies? What's our CACs? What are the LTVs? What's the LTV by CACs per channel by device? Kind of learning this stuff very quickly. What ads are working? Let's do a whole inventory of what ads are working and not working. What have we tested? Then you put this is in a list. Prioritize your plan going forward with what is the biggest gaps and maybe things you want to fix. What is working really well? How can we lean into that stuff? Then you kind of start making a plan, 30, 60, 90. And how I like to do this personally is I use the ICE framework.

John Koetsier: What is the best way to quit, change, and start jobs in mobile marketing and user acquisition? Welcome to "Mobile Heroes Origin Stories" where we go one on one in-depth with mobile marketing experts. And today, look, let's just be real. In tech, we change jobs like some people change underwear. Hopefully not us, hopefully not you, maybe not quite that fast but pretty fast. Question is how do you do it effectively? What are some tips for making a job change successful? Today, we're chatting with not just a Mobile Hero but also an expert at starting new jobs, ending old jobs, and transitioning. Peggy, who are we chatting with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we have Vishal Korlipara. He is a two-time Mobile Hero, John, which is a first on our show ever because he's coming back. Today, he heads up growth at Future. It's a health and wellness app that brings human connection to digital personal training. And before that, he was featured as a Mobile Hero in 2019 long before our show, but they had some great heroes. He's back, as I said. Back at that point, he was in a marketing role at Credit Karma. Then the company was acquired by Intuit, so he took a senior role there, loved the challenge. A few months ago, he made his move to the fitness industry. So, we've got someone who's gone, I guess you could say, from financial wellness to health and wellness. So, welcome, Vishal. Great to have you.

Vishal Korlipara: Thank you, Peggy. You are way, way too kind, but I am happy to be here.

John Koetsier: We're happy to have you. Let's start here. Why can it be a good thing for people to change positions frequently?

Vishal Korlipara: I think for me, the number one thing is personal growth. I think a lot of people try to bucket everything into career growth. For me, more than anything, it's continuously being challenged and trying to be the best version of myself. I think a lot of people will stay with something, a specific career, or path, hobby, and just continue doing it without progressing because it's easy, it's comfortable. It's within your comfort zone. I think most personal growth comes when you're outside of your comfort zone when you're learning, trying new things, pushing your personal limits, so, yeah.

John Koetsier: Is there a downside to switching pretty frequently?

Vishal Korlipara: I think there can be, depending on how you do it and the reasons why you do it. I think if you're getting let go quite a bit and changing in that regard it's probably not a good thing. But if you're building relationships and doing it in a way that's, you know, the right thing, and it feels right, and you're not leaving people stranded in a bad spot, I think it's definitely okay.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, you're switching, you're changing a lot. It's about personal growth. How do you actually end a job successfully? Because there's an interesting point, John, I was just reading an article about this, how do you end a job without upsetting your boss and burning your bridges? So, there's an art to this.

Vishal Korlipara: Yeah. And this is where I think there is a little bit more of an art than a science to this, but I think relationship-building is probably the most underrepresented skill to have in modern-day tech companies. I think we put a lot of focus on skills, actual hard, tactical skills. When it comes to building relationships and getting buy-in from your leaders, their leaders, people below you, it takes a certain amount of actual personableness and learning and meeting people at a human level.

Everyone has KPIs, everyone has goals, everyone has targets. If you're leaving and putting someone in a position where your team can't cover or you're not going to succeed because you're leaving and you're kind of just saying, "Okay, I'm out," that's not the right thing to do ever. If you're like, "Hey, we're in planning mode, and there's a lot of stuff I want to do that I know I'm not going to get to do in this next season," or next, like, seasonal peak, whatever it is, I think it's an okay time to make that transition.

What I do, and I think I do a good job, hopefully, my bosses if they hear this will agree, is I try to make real relationships with people I work with and my bosses, I try to definitely look out for them as much as I hope they're looking out for me. So, when I leave, it's not a, "Peace. I'm out. This was a pretty miserable experience." Usually, I'd say, "Hey, here's how I'm feeling. Here's what I'm looking for. If we can’t make it happen here." How can we do it as a collaborative effort on what I'm looking for normally, and they kind of know when it's coming. It's not a surprise at any time. And then it's, "Hey, here's our KPIs. Here's our goals. Here's what I'm going to do for a successful transition. Here's a transition plan that I'll try to backfill. I have people I know. How can I get people to replace me? How can we hire people up with a lot of potential to fill this role?" There's a lot of stuff like that that goes into it that's not thinking about, hey, how do I be the best growth marketer. It's also how do I be a good employee and a good person in these transitions?

Peggy Anne Salz: I think that's incredible, John.

John Koetsier: I love that.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was just going to say getting a backfill plan in place and everything, it's like easing someone into the idea. It's not just, "Hey, 30 days notice. I'm out of here, guys." And also trying to say sort of like, "Hey, you know, didn't quite work out. I want to grow in different ways." It almost sounds like really like a relationship. I think I've had dates like that, but...

John Koetsier: Hopefully not recently, but I agree with that. I think that's very cool. I think that's awesome because I think that it can be the right thing for you for a while and then you need to move on, and that's totally fine. And you shouldn't be stuck someplace know, and stuck is a word that maybe I shouldn't use either. But you shouldn't be someplace where you're not being the best person that you could be, the best employee that you could be, but you should also have those great relationships. It's great to be talking to an expert on this. I think I'd done a couple things right there because I've been rehired by companies that I've left. So, maybe I've done something right there, so that's good. But let's talk about starting. Starting is also important. What do you have to get right in the first 30, 60, 90 days of a new role?

Vishal Korlipara: Yeah. I think this conversation could go on for a little bit probably, but honestly, I'll start with the very first thing which is actually before 30, 60, 90. It's like by the time you get an offer or you're transitioning to a new role in the same company, you have to really know the org structure of where you're going in my mind even before you get there. I think the most critical thing is to get early wins and, like, really hit the ground running. It'll build confidence in yourself at an early stage. You'll feel good about yourself right away. You won't be digging out of this idea of tactical debt is what I call it where you're trying to constantly prove yourself.

When you come in and know here are the decision-makers, hey, is the CFO in charge of budgets? Is it the CMO? Who is responsible for our landing pages? Do we have the tools necessary to do it? Is it me? Is it outsourced? Then you can come in, audit all the stuff that you're trying to do. And the growth space is very specific, but it's like, hey, what are the channels? What are our efficiencies? What's our CACs? What are the LTVs? What’s the LTV by CACs per channel by device? Kind of learning this stuff very quickly. What ads are working? Let's do a whole inventory of what ads are working and not working. What have we tested? Then you put this is in a list. Prioritize your plan going forward with, what are the biggest gaps and maybe things you want to fix. What is working really well? How can we lean into that stuff? Then you kind of start making a plan, 30, 60, 90.

And how I like to do this personally is I use the ICE framework. I don't know, it's really, really basic. You can Google it. It's like impact, confidence, effort, you rate them on a scale from one to five, sum them up, and that's your ICE score. Sort your list by this, and then, all of a sudden, you have this priority list of, okay, now I know what's the biggest impact, easy to execute, start just knocking these things out, and then finding the resources, navigating the team. These are all really tactical things.

I think the other main thing to do with your 30, 60, 90 is get to know... And I said this earlier and I keep kind of reiterating. In this virtual world specifically that we're living in more and more, getting to know people outside of just your job responsibility is essential. At Future, we just had our first work offsite with our whole marketing team. And if you were A/B testing team energy before and after, it's like, you know, now we all know each other and we can relate. It's not just this request for this creative or this, you know, whatever it is. It's not like a tactical resource, you know, based thing now. It's like, "Hey, we have a relationship. We know who each other are," invest in that early. And you can do it via Zoom. Make your first one-on-one. Make, like, 25%, 30%, 50% of it about, "Hey, what do you do? What are your hobbies? What is your passion? Where did you come from? Where did you grow up?" You'd be surprised what you get to know about people, and that's kind of how you get to start, I think, a lot of your times at new positions in new companies.

Peggy Anne Salz: I’m blown away by this, John.

John Koetsier: Go ahead.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was just going to say, though, you know, such a plan. I mean, right there, it's like life coach here. But I have to ask, where do you start your research? When you say you come into the company and you know, is the CMO or CFO in charge of budget, I mean, that's not something I'm going to find in LinkedIn necessarily. So, can we step back to that prep? Because that's a great tip. Where do you find this stuff? Unless, of course, you’ve got some private detectives you're paying, I don't know. But, no, seriously, though, because it's a lot of research, a lot of legwork.

Vishal Korlipara: Yeah. And so I think there's two parts, and it depends on the role and what you're doing. If you're going within companies, you should have some idea, I would hope, of what's happening already and you can kind of navigate that. But when I joined, my current boss, great guy, Brian Han, I basically reached out to him via LinkedIn to even, like, start talking about this role. And before that, I asked. I was like, "So, who are the people I need to talk to to get to know?" And he would actually happily set up meetings for me to start meeting people.

You know, within the interview process, I think the standard interview now, you meet three to four people on the team as well. And so right there, you're kind of getting to know people, navigate, even this interview process. At this point, you have four people within... If you're a startup like I am, it's like a pretty big portion of the entire team. And then at this point, I hope your manager is willing to do this. If they don't see the benefit in getting you introduced early and often, might be almost a red flag, to be honest with you. Because it almost is like they're either too busy, which means when you join, it's going to be a little bit chaotic for you, or they don't care about you spreading your wings and growing within this org. And so I think for me, lean into that.

And I wouldn't say it's a complete red flag, like, they should avoid that rule. What I would say is don't be intimidated. Go to LinkedIn. It's not hard now to go be like, "Okay, Future Fitness, Growth, CFO, CMO." Set up a meeting. Say, "Hey, I got the job offer. Really curious to see what you're doing, how I can help. What can I learn? What can I bring to the table?" Usually, anyone at your company should be willing to work with you in that way and learn and talk to you about stuff.
John Koetsier: I like that a lot, and it speaks to the fact that when you're being interviewed, you're also interviewing, right? And you're interviewing them, and you're understanding them, learning from them. What I was going to say earlier, Peggy, as you said as well, I love that we're having Vishal here. I love that we're having this conversation. So often in mobile, in marketing, in ad tech. We're talking about the numbers, we're talking about optimization, we're talking about the money, we're talking about many other things, and all of those matter. But the personal relationships are the critical factor that helps people be successful in roles, be successful in teams, and be successful over the course of a longer career. I'm really glad we're having this conversation.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. And so tactical, you know? I hate to say, but there are Mobile Heroes we've had on the show, John, I haven't even gotten around to thanking them so much for the time they spent, and, poof, they're gone, right? You know what I mean? It's not even a six-month period that I'm far behind in my email, but, you know, it happens. And this is such solid advice to do it in such a way that it's productive, it's positive. It's growth in the truest sense. It's personal growth.

John Koetsier: Let's move here. So, you're moving quite frequently, sometimes you're not. Sometimes you stay in a position for a long time. Are there reasons to stay with the same company for a long time, even maybe in the same role for multiple years?

Vishal Korlipara: So, yes, I do believe there are reasons for this. I think I'll put this as generically as possible. I think everyone has different things that suit them. So, if you are someone that loves the corporate environment, loves big business, and loves growing in that way in their corporate ladder and want the longevity to move up in that way, I think it's essential that you do that. If you don't, it's really hard to grow into a C-suite at an Intuit or something like that. I intentionally have been a startup guy. You know, I was at Morgan Stanley early in my career before I decided, hey, I did not want to do that, got into something a little more interesting and a little bit more...I don't know what the word is, but a little bit newer, a little bit more interesting, a lot to learn. And I recently was like, hey, I've never done big tech. With this Credit Karma acquisition we went through with Intuit, I was like, "This is a great opportunity to go try a big company," you know, a little bit more of a senior level. Let's see what that's like. I've been pretty tactical on the ground growing things, like, actually building things for most of my career, and I was like, "Let's see what it's like."

What I learned was that it's a different skill set at these companies. And so longevity matters because, for them, there's an element of persuasion. And I don't want to say these are the politics because it's kind of negative, but it's like the more you know someone there, the more you're able to move resources around, which to me is how those businesses work. And so longevity matters because people will know you, will have confidence in you, etc.

But if you go to a startup, I think the biggest difference, it's not really about how long you've known someone. It's about the numbers at the end of the day, and it's kind of survive or die, right? Like our company, it's like every quarter matters right now. Like, it really, really matters. I was going to get a little bit explicit there, but, yeah, it matters. And for us, I love that about the startup. I love that, hey, I go in, I can bring a certain tactical skill set, I can bring certain experience, bring this to the platter, and now, all of a sudden, we can apply this to a different product and see what we can do with it. And there's a lot for me to learn in a different industry. It's not like it's cut and paste, right?

And so, yes, there's a room for it. I think a lot of people do it. I have people I know at Credit Karma that have been there for 10-plus years. And so I think there is room for it. And someone who's junior...I think this is the other element. I still haven't started my own company or gone to that level yet of being an early founder, which I think is something in my future I would love to try to do. I think you stick with it for sure at that point, right? But someone that's still learning and trying to grow, still, like, rounding out his skill sets, I think it doesn't have to be that way, essentially.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was going to ask you what's different about each, but you jumped right in there, and it's fascinating. It's like this longevity to get to C-level, and you can just feel a little bit of the grind there. So, that's part of the answer, you know? When you're a startup, it's fresh. Every quarter is new. Every quarter is a new chance to evolve. Looking at all of your roles that you've had, and they have been a number, I didn't know about the Morgan Stanley, what's your personal accomplishment or frustration you have experienced, and what's it taught you, both at the startup, maybe, as well as the C-level or more senior level? You haven't had C-level yet, Vishal. That's in your future. Senior level.

Vishal Korlipara: Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. We'll start with the harsher one first, I guess. So, you know, I think the corporate... For me, I really care about results, and I'm a very competitive person in that way, I think. And what I found was in a corporate environment, results actually can be secondary sometimes to ego. And I hate to be that guy, but it feels that way at times where it's like, hey, the more senior you are, the more your opinion matters and results maybe don't matter as much, to the point where you might be working in the dark. You don't have attribution figured out. You don't have budget sorted in a way that's consistent and normal. That, to me, can be frustrating.

In the startup world, I think everyone in the startup world can relate to this, it's like a love-hate thing with the grind and the kind of...the hustle, right? It's like, hey, it's exciting, it's new, it's fun. When you get that round of funding, everyone's celebrating, but you're also living stressfully, right? When a budget changes, you're like, "Hey, I've been building this whole marketing plan to this moment," and it's like, hey, we got to turn this off for a little bit because money's low, etc. That's like the worst feeling, right? It's all this work you're putting into something, and then all of sudden you have to pivot. You have to be okay with pivoting. If you're not okay with it, the startup world is not for you pretty much. And so those are my frustrations.

The benefits are corporations, man, I'll tell you what, corporations, you live a good life, and I mean that positively. Like, you are working your hours, you're going to get paid above average most likely at most corporations, and you're going to have job security, just to be honest. I think those are good things, and I think a lot of people seek that, and that's okay. The good thing with startups to me is the momentum and, like, that kind of visceral feeling of momentum in growth where you're excited. You wake up, you're like, "Hey, what's going on? What's new today? What's happening?" Like, everyone has that same kind of collaborative feeling as well, and so that's cool to me, like, and I actually love that.

John Koetsier: I can see both those things. I think there's also a personality piece to it. I mean, if you're the person who likes to do one thing and focus on it, then there are slots in big companies for that. If you're a person who likes to do multiple things, and I get bored by this, so I turn to that, and then I get bored by that and I turn to this, well, guess what? In a startup, you're going to wear three or four hats and you're going to have to do three or four things and maybe even more than that. Let's turn here a little bit and talk about that point of transition. When do you know that it's time to go, and how do you know, "Actually, I need to stay?" How does that thought process go?

Vishal Korlipara: I think it all comes back to the personal challenges, and I think that's what it comes down to. So, I'll use Credit Karma as a perfect example. I had a lot left to learn within Credit Karma, but the role I was in specifically was kind of getting emerging verticals off the ground. Me and Peggy actually talked about this. So, there were some cool things around org structure, like how do we do a growth pod with branding growth marketers working together. That was a really cool project. But it kind of came to a point where the decision was now should I just pick a team and go a little bit more senior and stick to this team, and kind of do what I was doing but just go a little bit more in-depth with it a little bit and kind of commit to one specific vertical. And it was out of this role of kind of doing a little bit of everything. And at that point, I realized that, okay, I could do this here. I've done it. I have great connections. I love everyone I worked with there. But, like, I could also try going senior somewhere else at a bigger company and also try to apply my knowledge at a different level and see what happens there.

And to me, it was like I'm going to be learning a lot more about myself and about a different position in my industry by doing so, and that's kind of the decision I made. So, it was, like, really about personal growth. Like, where am I going to be maximizing my learnings? That's such a growth marketer thing to say, but it's very true. And when to stay, I think you know when to stay. You don't even think about it, right? It's like, hey, I'm happy, I'm content. It's exactly where I'm at, like, right now. It's like you wake up fresh, energized, you’re challenged, you're learning, and that's it. I don't have, like, you know, a qualification method for that, but I think you should know when you feel good, you're in rhythm and stuff. That's where I'm at.

Peggy Anne Salz: And you didn't just move on. It was just about personal growth. I mean, you literally moved. You left the Bay Area, right?

Vishal Korlipara: Yeah. Well, so my story, and just, like, this is the interesting thing.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay.

Vishal Korlipara: So, I was in Atlanta. In Atlanta, I was, like, grinding startups from, like, the beginning. I even, like, started my own digital marketing agency at one point. A lot of failures, not going to lie to you guys. I failed, like, three startups. None of them actually turned into anything significant. So, during the third one, I applied to my alma mater's MBA program, got into that. And I sat down, and I was just like, "Do I want to be in Atlanta with an MBA kind of grinding startups here," like, you know, "Is this work, like, putting myself in the best position?" And at that point, I said, "No, I don't think so." I was like, "Let's go to the Bay Area. Let's figure out what... You know, let's go to, like, the epicentre and see what we can do there."

And then from that point, I got there, joined Credit Karma... I was super, super lucky I got to join Credit Karma. Then went to Intuit, which was a great experience. Intuit was in-person in Mountain View. Upon leaving Intuit, Future was fully remote. So, I have now given up my lease. I'm actually travelling, a completely remote nomad. Now, if you want to talk about challenges other than career stuff, it's travelling living out of a suitcase which you have to learn and you adapt to, but that's, like, another personal thing we can get into. And so that's kind of where I'm at now. And so it's a fun life, and it's fun and exciting.

John Koetsier: It reminds me of the Steve Jobs quote where he would say to himself...he'd look in the mirror every morning and he would say, "If today was the last day of my life, would I want to do what I'm about to do today? And if the answer is no for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something." And that kind of gives you a clue of what's changing. Boy, living the digital nomad life while also doing the startup life, that's a lot of change and that's a lot going on.

It's coming near the end of the year here and maybe transitioning into 2022. And Peggy and I were chatting about New Year's resolutions and stuff like that. You're doing a fitness thing. Talk about what you're doing right now, what the challenges are there, and what you're learning about growth in your new app.

Vishal Korlipara: Yeah. So, it's a great segue. So, talking about New Year's resolutions, number one, I actually...not going to focus on fitness this time for the first time because since a month before I joined the company, like I told you, I tried to get invested, I actually bought into Future the first month I got involved and I loved it. Like, I actually haven't missed a workout in, like, four months or something crazy like that. And I'm not, like, bragging about our app, but, like, that's literally what we did. So, for me, I don't have to think about that. Maybe diet or something I should think about, or settling down, who knows, but that's on the New Year's resolution.

At Future, for me, there's a lot of challenges. And so, number one coming from fintech to fitness, they're very, very different spaces. I'll give you a really specific example to illustrate this. At Credit Karma, we had a bunch of free users. When I say a bunch, there's, like, 100 million-plus, right? To get these users, it was like how do we get them in the door, and then our product delivers immediate value? How do we retain these users? And LTV came from giving them really targeted offers, right? So, the goal with growth was two parts. One was new users, the second was onboarding them to our sub-verticals, which is our mortgage product or our auto product, etc., which we can then upsell.

Now, going to fitness, it's very different. So, we go from ads that are, hey, get your credit score for free. Free, free, free. Everything's free. Now, we're actually selling a high-end product with an elevated brand that people are going to come to for our brand and feeling good about themselves, and it's a whole different experience. The people are different, and the margins are very different. And even the CACs are incredibly different. And so when you're working with 100 million data points versus whatever small amount we're working with, it really changes how you test, how do you learn fast, what are the proxies, how do we get smarter, how do we get really niche, and our creative has to be super on point. It's very different challenges in that way. So, that's one challenge.

The other challenge is, honestly, just a high-end brand... Well, I kind of mentioned this, but a high-end brand versus a low-end brand. It's, like, not low-end but one for the masses and one with how it is. How do we price our stuff? It's like what do we price it to? Right now, we're pricing it as high-end. Do we change our pricing structure, introduce new products to actually reach out to a bigger audience, which is something I'm bullish on in 2022. There's a lot of things we're going through right now, and so, yeah, it's fun.

John Koetsier: All right. Very cool. That's awesome. Well, this has been very interesting, and I love talking about some of the interpersonal and also career-type stuff of growth marketers. We can't let you go. We ask all our experts for three actionable tips, and here's the question we're going to ask you. What are your top three tips for growing your career in 2022?

Vishal Korlipara: Very, very relatable. And so I think one is, I hate to say it, don't focus on promotions. Iif you focus on promotions, you're just going to set yourself up for failure because once you get a promotion, you're not going to be excited. That's not how the world works. Be excited in what you do, and then that will translate to growing in your actual personal career.

Second is I didn't realize this until later in my life, but it's align your passion with the industry you generally care about. So, for me, fintech was right where I needed to be, being kind of not the most successful yet, figuring out my finances. It was a really cool place to learn about it while also bringing people to it. Now, fitness is exactly the same thing. It's like I coached basketball, fitness was always something I cared about, and so now it's aligning perfectly with my own personal motivations as well, as well as bringing people to it. So, that's like the second thing.

The third thing is I'm going to say this one because it's kind of different, I think, is don't get fixated on this brand versus DR versus all this kind of internal growth stuff people talk about. Like, it just doesn't make sense. We're all one team trying to grow something together. And if you don't have a brand team that supports you and you don't have a growth team that supports your brand, no one is going anywhere. So, learn to build bridges. Learn how do we make everyone happy and how do we make it work. Use data as your guiding light, right?

Peggy Anne Salz: That's awesome. That's like the world according to Vishal, and I really like it. It's got a personal touch, too, which makes me feel good. Because I'm usually, like, the warm and fuzzy person in the room, you know, talking about teams and things. It's like, "Yeah, well, you know..." But, no, this is part of it. This is part of what you need to strive for. So, thank you for that reinforcement. There is a place for all of this. It's all about collaboration, understanding your coworkers, having vision, doing what you love, passion. There you go John.

John Koetsier: Absolutely.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's why we're here, right, John?

John Koetsier: Absolutely. That's why we do it with you.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. We get to talk to cool people like Vishal. So, thank you.

John Koetsier: Cool people like Vishal and others as well. If you want to be on the show, hey, you know how to get in touch with us. Thank you so much, Vishal. It's been wonderful.

Vishal Korlipara: Thanks, guys. Appreciate it.

Dec 29, 2021

3 Ways for Mobile Marketers To Win in 2022

We have had a year. In some ways an awful, horrific, challenging year. In other ways a crazy, wacky, but growth-filled year. What happened? What did it mean? And, more importantly, how will mobile marketers achieve massive growth next year in 2022?

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, hosts John Koetsier & Peggy Anne Salz chat with Shamanth Rao, who has led growth for games leading to acquisitions by GSN Games, Zynga, and GameLoft (!!!). He now runs Rocketship HQ and might just possibly have a podcast that maybe potentially a few people might listen too. (It may or may not be called the Mobile User Acquisition Show.)

We rant and rave about the highlights and lowlights of 2021, then get Shamanth’s top 3 tips on how to win in 2022.

25 min

John Koetsier: So, we thought 2020 sucked, and then 2021 happened. And the pandemic didn't go away, and ATT dropped, and Apple canned 420,000 apps from the App Store. 2021 is almost over, and we're going to wax a little sentimental or maybe cry a little bit about the year that was, and look forward to the year that is coming. And, Peggy, who are we going to cry into our beer with?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we certainly need it, John. When you rattle that off, it sounds like one of your upcoming science fiction books, you know, like, “This couldn't have happened.” Yes, it did. And we're going to talk about the highlights with Shamanth Rao. He is the founder and CEO of RocketShip HQ. And if you don't know it, well, hey, maybe you should because it's a full-service growth marketing agency that helps top grossing games and breakthrough B2C apps grow sustainably.

And he’s the man for the job as well, as he has also led growth leading to three acquisitions. We're talking about Bash Gaming by GSN Games, PuzzleSocial by Zynga, FreshPlanet by Gameloft. And if that wasn't enough, John, growth is also the focus of the podcast he hosts. So he's one of us. He hosts “The Mobile Acquisition Show.” So, we…

John Koetsier: Never heard of it. Don't mention it.

Peggy Anne Salz: Never heard of it, no.

John Koetsier: Not a thing.

Peggy Anne Salz: It’s major, it’s epic. So, here we are, and here we are with Shamanth. Great to have you. Before we deep dive into 2021 and some of the disasters, but the highlights, how was 2021 for you, Shamanth?

Shamanth Rao: Well, it was intense. It was quite a roller coaster, right? I think it was a lot of figuring out of what to do post-ATT, post-April. I think, pre-April, there was a lot of speculation about what it could be like. We knew the theory of what ATT would be like. A lot of the speculation was about what the practice would be like. And post-April, it was like actually adapting to what was happening with all the privacy thresholds, the censorship web flows, and all of the stuff we've done to really adapt and adapt to ATT. But really, ATT has been the big thing all year.

John Koetsier: I almost feel bad about it in some ways, because I feel like, I know Android is like 80%, 75% of the globe. And we keep talking about iOS, iOS, iOS. And of course, you know, I live in North America, Peggy's in Europe, you're in Europe, I believe, so we're kind of Western-centric, in some sense, where iOS has its strongholds. But I feel bad for Android. And I feel bad for Google. Maybe they're very happy to not be the topic of the conversation.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. No news is good news.

Peggy Anne Salz: It could change in 2022, though, Shamanth. I mean, there are signs, so.

Shamanth Rao: Yes and no, right? So, there certainly are signs, but a lot of folks we work with have been more or less business-as-usual on Android. Certainly, there's been more spend that’s diverted to Android. But, John, I think you mentioned this when I spoke to you on our podcast, which was like, the important thing is that Apple is not an advertising business, and Google is. So, Google, while they want to change aspects of the landscape, they have their privacy sandbox, they have FloC, they're not going to upset the applecart in a way that completely jeopardizes ads in the way that Apple has done.

John Koetsier: I think you're right on that. And you're 100% accurate. There's a vested interest that Google has. I'm actually doing my predictions post, my famous predictions post for 2022 right now. I have literally got submissions from about 500 CMOs and UA specialists and everything. And one of the predictions is that FloC 2.0 will come out and it'll be topic-focused. And so we'll see how that goes.

There was a lot of pushback on FloC, Federated learning of Crowds, when it came out, because it seemed to privilege Google, obviously. But we'll see how that goes.

Let's talk about some of the topics that were really big in 2021. And maybe some that weren't and might be in 2022. There's been a ton of ad tech consolidation and aggregation. So, kind of in a revolution what an ad network looks like, feels like, what it encompasses. What's going on there?

Shamanth Rao: Yeah, definitely right. And we've definitely seen, just on the buying side, we've seen a lot of spend shift towards some of the bigger ad tech players that are not Google and Facebook. And just that's, I think, driven just sheerly by the consolidation that you're speaking of. And that is really on account of everybody realizing the value of first-party data, because you can't track IDFA and say, “Hey, this particular user, John or Peggy, made a $500 purchase,” you can't do that. But you can still say, “John or Peggy, who's in our network of 50 apps, made a $500 purchase,” right? It's still a valuable piece of information.

Definitely we’re seeing consolidation of first-party data. And I expect that sort of consolidation to just be a virtuous cycle that continues to build on itself.

John Koetsier: Little hint here, I'm not done compiling. I'm literally 1/3 of the way through all the submissions I have. So, yeah, I have lots of data crunching due in the short few days that remain before the Christmas break, which I plan on taking, Peggy, and you do too, that's an order. But first-party data seems to be kind of the winner right now of things to focus on in 2021.

And, Peggy, if we look at the landscape, I mean, ironSource has bought Upopa, SuperSonic, Soomla, Luna, Tapjoy, Bidalgo, Aura.

Peggy Anne Salz: And they’ll be in AppSumo, that's one of my former clients.

John Koetsier: Absolutely. We’re doing this for Liftoff. Liftoff and Vungle came together. Vungle had already bought a few things like GameRefinery, JetFuel, AlgoLift, TreSensa. AppLovin is out there, right? Lion Studios, MAX, SafeDK, Machine Zone. Members of Machine Zone, how massive Machine Zone was in the day, right? It’s still big. Adjust, a billion-dollar acquisition, right? Which had bought MoPub, a billion-dollar acquisition that just happened, right?

Digital Turbine bought AdColony, Fyber, Appreciate. Unity has even bought companies. And Unity has so much organic growth because they control so much of the development stuff.

I mean, this is a new world that we're entering. And what I'm trying to figure out right now, Shamanth, is this good for marketers? A. And is this good for users? Is this good for people like us?

Shamanth Rao: Well, I would say it's different for marketers and different for users, right?

Peggy Anne Salz: Can’t pin you down on that one. So, you’re right, it’s different.

Shamanth Rao: Always the diplomat, right? But, you know, just to elaborate, right? And I feel like I've been in a lot of behind-the-doors conversations on this. When I say it's different for marketers, it just means it's much, much less of being what I called, you know, the kind of person that I would call an Excel person or Excel monkey, if you wanna speak of it that way. I consider myself one, so, I don't consider that a pejorative term.

So it's less of being super analytical, super deterministic, if you will, and much more about stepping out of the almost-certainty, near-certainty that the MMP-driven world offered for close to the last decade, and just being comfortable with understanding that you don't know what the actual truth is. You're going to have to be more touchy feely, if you will, to understand what true incrementality is and make your peace with the fact that it's not going to be exact.

John Koetsier: Mm-hmm. Peggy, I had to think of one of my favorite “Lord of the Rings” quotes when Shamanth was answering, it's different. The quote is this, from Tolkien, “Go not to the elves for advice for they will say both yes and no.”

Shamanth Rao: That's a good one. Yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's a good one. That is really good. I have to follow up, though. Because you said, you know, is it good? Well, it's different, right? Let's talk about games marketers, though. We've both been out there talking to people. I've been at conferences. It's a very different landscape. And there's a lot of confusion. What happened there? Can you maybe give me a view into what that means? When we look back, are we going to say, “This is when you didn't only just have to face the consolidation?” I mean, it's confusion, really.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. Yeah, I would say games are hit harder than some of the other verticals. And I would say, somewhat well-driven games, games that have relatively low payer percentage have been hit harder, just because, for those apps, it's just harder to isolate conversion values with the nuances of Apple's SKaN, the way how SKaN works. So games have been hit harder.

What also makes it challenging for games is that networks like Facebook and Google also have their own behind-the-scenes setup. Because of Apple's privacy thresholds, conversion values get obfuscated. And I think, John, this may have been in a webinar that you and I were on that I shared how some of the folks we work with saw like 2,500 CPA, 3,000 CPA, right? And those are obviously not real, right? That's just because Apple is obfuscating so much of conversion data that you just don't know what is real and what isn’t.

John Koetsier: Exactly. Essentially, you have to turn to modeling in that case, and then you can get some version of reality that allows you to proceed. That was really interesting. That was a super interesting period of 2021 for me, when people were just adapting. Some people had gone all-in in SkaN and just gone wrong. Some people had said, “No, no, no, I’ll do it when I have to,” and were scrambling.

Everybody was just kind of confused. And you were seeing these massive CPAs, these massive CPIs. And the ones that had faith that, in spite of the data craziness that I'm seeing and kept spending, actually told me they got a discount on installs on iOS, because money that wanted to be measured went to Android, and people took a while to get going on iOS.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. Right. But it took a certain level of bravado, if you will. Bravado, foolhardiness.

John Koetsier: Faith-based marketing.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah. Faith-based marketing.

Shamanth Rao: Marketing to go all in on something that you weren't sure was going to come back to you.

John Koetsier: Yep. One thing I have to, and I'm going on this, Peggy, for a bit, so forgive me about this consolidation. One thing I'm trying to understand is if this is good for marketers, it can mean fewer partners, that can be a good thing. I mean, if all else is equal, fewer is better, right? It's less overhead, it's less maintenance, it’s less back-and-forth, all that stuff. So, that's a good thing. It could also, I'm wondering, I'm going to ask this, Shamanth, does it mean less layers in the ad tech stack?

And I say that because we've seen studies over the years where, you know, how much of every dollar spent by a marketer actually goes to putting an ad in front of somebody's eyes? And we've seen some really scary numbers there like 50 cents, 30 cents, that sort of thing. Because you’ve got ad networks, you got to exchanges, you got SSPs, you got DSPs, you got retargeting, you got on-device, you got mediation, you got agencies in there, you got measurement that's costing something as well. You have a lot of those little bits and pieces that everybody wants, it's like the mob, right? Everyone wants a piece, right? Where's my piece? Is that a potential benefit?

Shamanth Rao: You know, that's a good analogy. And I would say, again, yes and no. Yes, you’ll have fewer people in between, you know, but you're going to reach…the accuracy of your targeting, you're going to reach users that are much less precisely your ideal users, right? Yeah, so the accuracy of your targeting is so much lower. So, I don't know if fewer middlemen or middle people actually makes a difference.

John Koetsier: Also, because I think the price goes up. Facebook has very few layers between the advertiser and the actual consumer, but it's still very expensive.

Peggy Anne Salz: It’s just worth, in a day, very expensive. It's just going to be making some people happy.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah, they got their quarterly numbers to hit.

John Koetsier: They do. And that's a good segue, because we should talk about who won and who lost in 2021. In terms of the platforms, in terms of ad networks. You already mentioned that some of the midsize players, especially the ones that were consolidating, aggregating, have done better, and I've seen that in the data as well. Who else has done well, and who's maybe failed a little bit?

Shamanth Rao: I think, you know, definitely the ad tech networks have done well, as we talked about. Folks have moved more budgets to influencers. That's certainly a sector that's done well that we've seen. Web-based flows have definitely done well. And, again, I would say, when we've done web-based flows, that's been through Facebook and Google. So, certainly, those dollars have gone to Facebook and Google, but as a strategy, web-based flows have continued to do well.

Yeah, I think those are the things that come to my mind, top of mind. Curious what you guys are seeing.

John Koetsier: Yeah. Peggy, I mean, maybe be cool to hear what you have to see here as well. I mean, I think Google did well because intent is still strong, right? Search really did well, even though there was a lack of data. I think Facebook had a significant dip in the middle of the year, but I think they figured it out.

And I'm just speculating here, I have no insider knowledge, but it may have something to do with the return of Apple casting applied eye to fingerprinting. I'm just guessing, although Facebook doesn't return data, it does get data. Snap had a tough time, right? Snap, it impacted their quarterly numbers, right? But I think the biggest winner is a fruity company in Cupertino, Peggy.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. Yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: I do watch a few of the other things going on, because I look at the now, but I also look at developments in 2021. And, you know, maybe it's the same for you, Shamanth, but when I would talk to marketers, and I would say, where are you putting your money? Where are you placing your bets? It was the usual suspects. And I heard some new names in that group, right? Everyone was talking about TikTok.

I just talked to a company that sells bathroom ceramics the other day, right? And it's like, “We’re in TikTok,” and I'm thinking, “What can you do? What dance can you do to show off a toilet?” I won't go there. But…

John Koetsier: Oh, Peggy, wow. You cannot drop that grenade and walk away from it. Peggy, the toilet dance has to be…

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. Yeah, John would be surprised, yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: I still get known for that. I was keeping with the Rolodex, John, it was bad enough. But, you know, TikTok and the most amazing apps, the most amazing scenarios. And you have to also look at Reddit, you know. We're all very empathetic, we're very concerned about being in the right conversation the right way. You've got, you know, all these apps you wouldn't expect, looking at that as a platform. So, you saw this come up.

John Koetsier: And Reddit…

Peggy Anne Salz: Yes.

John Koetsier: And Reddit is a very good example of something that Eric Seufert has talked about, content fortresses, right? Reddit closed the doors. Reddit said, “Hey, if you wanna access our inventory, come in through the one door.” It's kind of become like a Facebook, and that's interesting. That's something that we've seen as well, Shamanth.

Shamanth Rao: Yes. I would also say Reddit… So, I think it's interesting to look at how Reddit has approached it versus TikTok. TikTok has been very direct response-friendly. They’ve been open and receptive to our feedback. They've had a sit-down with our product teams, they’re like, “Make things work.” Reddit has not quite been as friendly to direct response.

They're like, “Give us your dollars, see what results you get. We don't care what happens in between.” So, it's interesting to look at how both these platforms have approached direct response. I'm not claiming direct response is the only game in town, it's not.

John Koetsier: Ooh, love that insight. I really love that insight. And that rings really true. I mean, where does TikTok come from? It's doing it from China. What happens in China? Influencers selling online, live streaming retail, right? Well, guess what? That's coming to TikTok, that's in Amazon, Amazon Live has that right now, that's going to be big in the States, I think, as well, to some extent.

But Reddit is, famously, kind of old school internet, right? Don't market to me, don't grab my data, and much less friendly to that. So, that rings true. Very interesting.

Well, maybe what we should do is turn our attention to 2022. It's just around the corner. We're recording this on December 17th. We're all planning and prepping for a little bit of break. Hopefully, everybody's going to get a little bit of a break at the end of the year. What do we think is going to be big in 2022, Shamanth?

Shamanth Rao: Well, definitely, you know, iOS 15 exceeds increasing adoption, I would say. So, definitely, things will settle around all the new features around iOS 15. So, I think, definitely, custom product pages, product page optimization. My first look at both of these, I haven't been super impressed. But I think we will see more ad networks figuring out how to work with these, how to play with these. So I think that's definitely going to be a big one, right?

What's also true is, I think, John, you briefly alluded to this, which is probabilistic fingerprinting, call it what you will, continues in 2022. As of today, it's still around and available. I'd be very curious and interested to see what happens with that in 2022. I do think we and Apple, I think, they will just get a lot more clarity around SKaN, just because I think the privacy thresholds have been a mess.

I think we talked about how the theory of SKaN is not quite, to say this, the actuality of it, which has been one of the most frustrating things about it. So, I think, really, at the very least, I expect we'll all understand what the hell the rules of the game are.

John Koetsier: Yes. We'll know more, we’ll be smarter. Hopefully things will be clearer. Hopefully Apple will iterate on SKadNetwork, and there'll be a few more bits and pieces in there that marketers want. And I think what you're also referring to is ATT, right? I mean, if somebody says no on ATT, it doesn't mean they're not tracked anymore, really, because of fingerprinting, essentially.

And so, my personal thinking is that Apple has realized that FIAT is not going to work there, and they're just going to have a technological solution around what you were talking about, iOS 15 Private Relay for people who are paid iCloud members. So we'll see how that goes.

Peggy, this has been quite amazing and quite interesting. And it almost didn't happen. This has been an odyssey to get you [inaudible 00:20:21] it is our third try. And I think now we’ve actually nailed it.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: True. He's there, we brought him on the show.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. We made it happen.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was thinking, my prediction for you, Shamanth, actually. I was thinking that, speaking, again, I went to a conference, I went to two conferences this year, and I was going to go to a third, but it's been moved out to February, out to March.

John Koetsier: Super spreader Peggy.

Peggy Anne Salz: No, that’s me, that’s me. I was checked before, after, during. I was never so healthy in my life as I was during this period of time. But all the marketers are like, “Hey, you know what, we can do more marketing of our app. We have pages, we have presentations, we have, you know, we have ways of reaching the customer differently.” So, I imagine, you're going to be overloaded with work, Shamanth.

Shamanth Rao: Kind of good problems to have back there for now. I think, yeah. Good problems to have. I'm not complaining.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah. Also changes the balance a bit out there. We'll be talking about some interesting topics next year around what do you do when you can actually be responsible for your advertising and for your sort of your, you know, beyond ASO. So, anyway, we'll see him again, John. He won't be that busy, we’ll find time.

John Koetsier: We’ll find him time, absolutely. But this has been amazing. Well, we can't let you leave, because we have to ask every single person. It’s a rule, it's law. And it's literally written in the statute codes of something. Top three tips for mobile marketers in ’22 from Shamanth Rao.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. Number one is, focus on incremental impact. That could be blended numbers, that could be just spreadsheet-based incrementality models. Or if you have fancy data science-based models, use that. But focus on incremental impact, number one.

Number two, focus on retention and lifecycle marketing. You guys just a retention podcast. So, yeah, I'm preaching to the choir here. But for everybody else, I think acquisition has just been so top-of-mind for everybody. Really, I think, figuring out email experience, really optimizing them, getting all the juice out of that, I think is going to be critical.

Number three, web-based flows. I think I've very briefly touched on that. But really, everybody we've worked with that has grown month-on-month post-ATT has leaned on web-based flows. Not going to say that works for everybody, not going to say it works for every vertical. But I absolutely recommend everybody, at the very least, test it.

Peggy Anne Salz: Interesting.

John Koetsier: That is interesting. That's another [crosstalk 00:22:54] dropped on the floor right there, right at the very end that everybody who's seen growth through an ATT has utilized web-based flows. Wow.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's huge. That’s huge, actually. That's the highlight. Do we have him back just to talk about web-based flows?

John Koetsier: We're going to have him back now.

Peggy Anne Salz: We have to. We’re going to have you back. You won’t have much [crosstalk 00:23:14] We’ll have a little break, we'll let you go. But no, we have to go into that. Because we do, surprise, surprise, sneak peek, we do have incrementality nailed on this show. We will be dedicating one show just to that.

John Koetsier: Yes, we are. Well, you know, we really have to dedicate more than one to really nail it. But I'm super pumped to get to that one. I mean, we just had a masterclass right here in how to get invited back to the podcast by Shamanth Rao. I mean, like drop a bomb that last second.

Peggy Anne Salz: At the last minute, literally right before the end. “Oh, and by the way,” and then that’s it, yes. We have your knowledge bomb. We are going to be back.

Shamanth Rao: Wonderful.

John Koetsier: Shamanth, thank you so much for this time. This is literally, as we've said, our third try. And I was late to this, and you hung around, so, thank you for that. It's been such a pleasure. You do amazing work for the industry. And thank you for your time.

Shamanth Rao: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for your patience, and the hardware recommendations, and all the good stuff.

John Koetsier: Excellent.

Peggy Anne Salz: Excellent show. Great insights. And yeah, you're coming back, so I won't say goodbye. Until then.

Shamanth Rao: Yeah. I will see you guys around.

John Koetsier: Awesome. I will say one more thing. Hey, Peggy and I love shining lights on people who are doing amazing things, probably very much like you, you know, and I'm talking to everybody who is listening or watching right now. If you are doing something cool in user acquisition, in mobile marketing, in other areas like that, we wanna talk to you.

Hey, reach out. Peggy's around, she's available. I'm around, I'm available. You may have sent five LinkedIn DMs, you know, because we don't check them every single day. But we wanna hear from you and we wanna have you.

Have a great day, everybody. Have a wonderful break. I hope you can get a break, and also a wonderful 2022.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. See you on the other side. Have a great break. And see you in 2022.

Shamanth Rao: Enjoy, everyone.

Dec 1, 2021

Learning From the “Performance Artists” of Mobile Growth

You know about growth marketers. You know about mobile advertising. But have you heard about “performance artists?” (And no, we’re not talking about weird things in off-Broadway plays or pop-up art displays.) Performance artists, Lidia says, transform KPIs into winners.


In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, Socialpoint’s UA Lead Lidia Perez leads us through creating winning creative. Which, as you know, can make a horrible app temporarily successful, a so-so app quite successful, and a truly good app (like yours!) a massive take-no-prisoners winner.

What we chat about:
– Finding winners
– Finding losers (almost as important!)
– The right metrics to watch (top and bottom-funnel)
– And building a systematic process for designing and testing winning creative

27 mins

John Koetsier: It's almost impossible to overestimate how important creative can be to mobile advertising. In fact, any kind of advertising. Creative can make a horrible app even temporarily successful, it can make a so-so app do very well, and it can elevate an actually good app to the very top of the download charts. Welcome to “Mobile Heroes Origin Stories,” where we go in-depth, one-on-one, with mobile marketing experts. Last time, we talked about escaping creative ruts. Today, we're going to dive into creative metrics. Peggy, who are we chatting with today?

Peggy Anne Salz: Well, we have another creative expert, John. So it's worth being here for the show. We have Lidia Perez, user acquisitions specialist at Social Point. Lidia began her career in UA at From the Bench, a gaming startup. Along the way, evolved into ad monetization and into UA strategy, and she joined the Word Games team at Social Point where she drives growth for Word Life, one of their very popular games, and oversees Social Point's creative testing framework and growth strategies. So she is the woman to ask about creative.

Lidia Perez: Hello.

Peggy Anne Salz: And I'm not over-selling you, Lidia. Welcome.

Lidia Perez: Super nice to meet you. I have watched a lot of your podcasts. So yeah, it's super nice to be here. So thank you so much for having me.

John Koetsier: Hey, it's our pleasure and it's our honor. Let's start here. How do you know when you've found a winner, when some creative is just absolutely perfect?

Lidia Perez: Absolutely perfect, yeah. Okay. So here, we can say that we have a winner mostly when it beats our control KPIs. That's a good sign. But it's not enough beating the control. I mean, we have to massively surpass the KPIs. Like around 10%, 20% or better KPIs. And apart from that, of course, we need to…this creative should be able to pick up spend in the live environment profitably. So that would be a great winner. But I can tell you that sometimes we have had as well little winners. That means that sometimes it happens that we have creatives that have passed all the tests that we have in place, but suddenly when we put them into the live environment, it picks up some budget, but not enough to beat the control in this live environment. That's good. Of course, not as good as could be a winner, but could be a temporary fix for ad fatigue.

John Koetsier: Is it sometimes tough because you may have some creative that knocks it out of the park for CTR but, for whatever reason, the ROAs or ROI isn't there?

Lidia Perez: Yeah. I mean, sometimes it happens that we have found an amazing creative in terms of, as you said, CTR with amazing CPI. But when we put it in the live environment, maybe even when it can pick up spend because of this amazing CPI or CTR or install rate, suddenly we see that our retention and our ROI start to drop a lot. So this is not a winner in the end because we need to address a good balance between CPI and between retention as well. In that case, we will be speaking about a loser. But when this happens, we have room to learn from it and try to improve the KPI that is failing. In this particular case that we are talking about, the KPI that we need to fix would be retention. But at least we have a base to start working with.

John Koetsier: Makes sense.

Peggy Anne Salz: Makes sense. I also like very much that you think about the retention while you're thinking early in the funnel as well. You know, a lot of companies, they think more about the monetization and not so much about the retention. Now you have a bit of a balance there, which is really interesting. But you still have to look at the metrics. So you know, CTR, very top of funnel. CPI we discussed, important. ROAS, critical. Retention, also one on the list. So which ones matter most? You can have multiple choice if you wish.

Lidia Perez: Yeah, I would love to have amazing numbers for all of them, of course.

John Koetsier: Yeah.

Lidia Perez: So yeah. Well, let's talk about the casual game with a hybrid business model. That's the case for Word Life. I would say that CPA could be a really good indication, a good proxy, as a first indicator of success in the earliest stage of the testing process. But this is not all, as I told before. So we need an extra quality assurance, and that involves looking at retention rate. In our case, retention rate on day one, because when we have both KPIs, this will allow us to get a sustainable growth in the end. So, from my point of view, and in our experience, CPI and retention are the main ones. And, as an extra, the third one that I would like to mention as well is the spend, the spend speed, because this is critical for some partners. Sometimes, the algorithm doesn't like this creative, although it has good CPIs or retention, but the algorithm doesn't allocate the spend there or a system is low. So this speed is something to take into account as well. So those three. I think I would say those three.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay. Limit yourself to three. Is Facebook a different case? I mean, does it require a bit more of a custom approach?

Lidia Perez: As a general rule, I would say that it depends more on the business model of the game instead of the partner where you are testing, because it could change a little bit. If, for example, we are working with a hardcore game where in-app purchases are extremely important and, for example, they don't have ad revenue. Or if we talk about the game, as Word Life, for example, that is more ad revenue driven. So it could vary depending on that, but I would say that at the earlier stage of the creative testing, when you are taking CPIs like the first feelings, the first numbers, it shouldn't vary too much. Even between different business models. But yeah, as I said, it doesn't depend that much in terms of partners.

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay. So very much on the objectives, types of game, mechanics.

Lidia Perez: Exactly. Exactly, Peggy. Yeah. That's the point.

John Koetsier: So last episode we actually chatted with your colleague, Danika, and she talked about systematizing serendipity.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

John Koetsier: What's your creative testing framework?

Lidia Perez: Yeah. Well, we have worked so much on that. It's pretty extensive, but I will try to explain to you briefly. Let's see if I actually do it. Well, I will say that our creative testing framework is mainly a data-driven system, and numbers are the core of the strategy, and everybody is aware of that. Because it's not marketing only, the people involved. We have art department, we have product, and, of course, marketing. Another key point here is that we have well-defined processes such as, I think Danika mentioned last time our weekly meetings with strict agendas. We have delivery schedules that we have to meet, and we have learning tracking tools because we manage a huge amount of information, and if we don't track it, it's extremely difficult to move forward and to learn from our mistakes or successes. We have customized and automatic reporting, as well, as a supporting tool, readable for non-analyst and analyst people.

We have visual clues, a lot of stuff here in our creative framework, and I would say that the main advantage of having such a structured machine, let's say that, is that it's easier to carry out a retrospective basically and identify the weak and the strong areas. But still, creativity is key in our process as well, but what changed is the way that we apply this creativity. Performance artists need to use creativity to transform KPIs into creative winners.

John Koetsier: Peggy, that's the first time I've heard, in this context, performance artists.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, I like that.

John Koetsier: That's pretty interesting, actually.

Peggy Anne Salz: That is very cool.

John Koetsier: I mean, we've seen performative art in the art world, but performance artists in the marketing world, in the mobile world, that's kind of cool.

Peggy Anne Salz: I really like that because it elevates, if you think about it, John. Everything's down to the creative, it's down to the levers you can push and pull, and this tells you really that it elevates the importance of the creative. And we now know that it's about performance. It's not just the creative. It really sort of seals that, and that's a lesson in itself.

Lidia Perez: Totally. Totally. Yeah. I like to call it performance artist because, in the end, you have to get used to numbers as well to produce the work. But yeah, they need creativity as well to interpret those numbers, and I think that this is a new role that is arising recently. And this is great in this industry because we have new profiles very often, and this is amazing. Sometimes it can be a little bit overwhelming, but it's amazing.

John Koetsier: Cool.

Lidia Perez: At the same time.

Peggy Anne Salz: I think you could probably also sell that framework to someone because you've now taken it into all these different steps. These are the KPIs at this step, this is the creative process deconstructed. I'd like to ask you, though, about the one question that you probably can't put in a chart, although John knows I'm a chart lover. Ideation. There's a little bit of your inspiration. There's the serendipity from Danika from our last show. I mean, how do you approach that?

Lidia Perez: Yeah, of course. We have kind of guidelines for the creative ideation. I would say that the key of the ideation process is the fact that we have prioritized the sources of this ideation. Let's say that. So, for sure, our KPIs are the key basically. And KPIs are based on the live environment. These learnings have the highest priority for us and for our team to start producing new creatives. But of course, there are more sources of ideation. For example, competitor trends, and even information that we get directly from our partners' accounts managers, because every partner has nuances regarding the creatives that work better with them. So to have a great relationship with them and to talk about creatives, it's super important.

Having said that, I'm passing now to detail the process. We have weekly meetings with our performance artists and there we talk about the live results. Let's say which are the creatives that are impacting very possibly in our live campaigns. And then, once we have those learnings, we put them in our tracking log. And then we move to the latest test results and what we have learned from the latest test results. Once we have this combo, our creative team has a separate meeting with the brainstorming sessions to transform those learnings into creative, into potential winners if everything goes well. So this would be a good summary. But yeah, I think it's extremely important and I couldn't highlight it more to structure and to prioritize your sources of ideation, because otherwise, we fall in this thing of “I think that this is going to work because I like it a lot, because I love these kind of schemes” or whatever. This is very subjective, and we need facts because otherwise we will be really lost. That's why.

John Koetsier: I love it, I love it. Very structured. Still creative. I wonder if you ever have an artist that says, "This is a fact. I'm an artist and I know what's good and I'm going to do it." But maybe not. You do have, however, different budget levels for different types of things that you put together. You have some things that you allow a total out-of-the-box idea. You know, whatever we can dream up, throw it out there and see what happens. You also have another stream so to speak of data-driven creative production. But you have different budget levels that you’ve assigned to those things. What are those levels and why do you have the difference?

Lidia Perez: Well, I think that this is super important, to be efficient with our budget. In our particular case, John, I would say that the split would be between 80/20. Of course, 80 is for our smart ideation and 20 for the wild cards, out-of-the-box creatives. I would say that. But this is not written in stone. Let's say that. Of course, it's obvious that it's extremely difficult to find creative winners now. I mean, it's such a competitive market. So we need to produce a lot of creatives in order to increase the chances to find winners. So if we add the random component here to the equation, we would be reducing our success rate a lot. Apart from that, the cost would be extremely expensive.

My recommendation comes now. If you have the resources, you have a lot of money, and your performance is extremely good at that point, you have this room to experiment more, and you don't have ad fatigue status, okay, you can increase your wild card budget. But even if you have the resources and you can spend a lot of money because you have it, for the sake of efficiency I recommend, if you are suffering from performance and you are not meeting the targets at that time, or you see that you are suffering from ad fatigue and soon you could be not reaching your ROI targets… So you have the money, okay, but it's not your moment. It's not the right moment. Not a good timing. Don't do it. But if you don’t have the resources, I would say, okay, forget about wild card creatives and be smart and be practical.

John Koetsier: It sounds like you need to achieve a certain level of success, Peggy, before you can go out of the box.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yes.

Lidia Perez: Exactly. Yeah. You nailed it. Exactly.

Peggy Anne Salz: That's very interesting though because, having that wild card, that then becomes the way sometimes that you can make something very successful when you're not looking at your competitors, you know. It's interesting because it seems to say that, if you're not successful already, you won't be able to necessarily invest in the wild card that would make you successful if you're not, John. So a little bit of a trap.

John Koetsier: Yeah, it's six of one and half a dozen of another, right?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

John Koetsier: Because I can see the point. Hey, follow the path, follow the KPIs. Do the math and create new stuff and achieve a certain level and do the wild card stuff and pull the joker out of the deck maybe if you have the budget and the time to be able to do that. And I suspect for different organizations they might not have the 80/20 that Socialpoint has. Maybe they're at 95/5. Maybe they're at 50/50. It depends on different organizations and their level of comfort with risk, I'm assuming.

Lidia Perez: Totally. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree with that. Finally, you know your budget constrictions and you know the risk that you can assume. So it's just about that.

Peggy Anne Salz: So this is all laid out in your blog post over on your Mobile Heroes page, and in that, you also lay out how you track investment at all levels of the creative process. So you're always checking back with your KPIs, but you're also checking with your budget. That's really interesting. Why are you doing that?

Lidia Perez: Because we have benchmarks that we have defined for every part of the test. So we have different phases in the tests, and we have KPIs to measure. So if we don't track investment, we cannot calculate the math. We cannot have the KPIs. So having a strong business intelligence behind and having a strong analytics team here is extremely important. It's a great backup because otherwise, it's extremely difficult to succeed, I would say. For example, I come from a small company. The resources that you have, for example, here at Socialpoint are amazing. And this is why we can do these kinds of things, these kinds of frameworks, to be able to measure everything, because when you measure everything, and this is the magic of performance marketing, you identify what's wrong, where I'm failing. And then to attack directly to that. In the end, this saves a lot of money. A lot of money. We are super focused on our daily routine, on our daily basis, and we forget to step back and to see the big picture, and to identify the needs that we have. And this is important to growth because otherwise, you end up in chaos.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, yeah. I totally get it.

John Koetsier: Lidia, that makes a lot of sense, and it reminds me of someone that Peggy and I interviewed. I think it was a couple of months ago, and I think it was Kieran O'Leary from Rovio.

Lidia Perez: Okay.

Peggy Anne Salz: I remember.

John Koetsier: And he said sometimes you got to step back and take a look at the journey that you've walked, the path that you've walked. And you know, sometimes you're stuck in…whether it's your process or your day-to-day grind or whatever it is, and you don't realize how far you've come. How amazing the job is that you've done. And that's another reason to look back. You know, I'm sure, Peggy, you'd love to live in that scenario. You have data, you have defined processes, you've got guidelines, you know what to do. It's all pre-programmed.

Lidia Perez: Granted. I feel you, Peggy. I mean, I'm a lot like this. I have a very analytic mindset. And it’s good. John, I would say the good is the balance. Adjust the balance, of course. So, yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: What I love about your framework is, it's about framework for creativity. So that in itself is quite an accomplishment, to try and make that more systematic. And we talked about how you're also addressing that and saying, okay, this KPI, this investment. I'm going to unpack that a little bit, John, because I think that's a helpful blueprint for a number of marketers who are going to be trying to grapple with this. So can you maybe just divide that down briefly into the stages that matter? I mean, you can't say check everything, test everything, because you'll never get your work done. But there must be a specific number of stages where it's like, that's where you need the reality check. That's where it needs to fit.

Lidia Perez: First of all, we need to check if it is CPI viable, the creative that we are testing, and we need to assess the quality for sure. Have very clear the sources of ideation, don’t get lost, don’t get distracted by your personal preferences. Track everything. Track all your learnings. It could be as easy as creating an Excel and putting in everything that you are learning and then prioritizing those learnings to start producing creatives. And measure. Keep iterating and iterating and iterating. Because, for example, we see our creatives as a block set. Let's say that, a block set. Our goal is to link those blocks, for example, intro, outro, mechanic. Link those blocks to particular KPIs. For example, CTR, install rate, retention. And then the end goal is to build the perfect combination that is going to lead us to create a winner.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Building blocks to success. Absolutely love it. Cool. Lidia, it has been such a pleasure chatting with you and learning a little bit more about your creative process, what works, and, of course, performance artists. Thank you so much for your time.

Lidia Perez: Thank you. It's been a total pleasure. Thank you for making everything so easy.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely, Lidia. Also, I want to thank you for making it understandable. You know, taking something that's very sort of vague, the creative process, trying to put it into a system, giving us a framework, giving it some organization. A great help. Thank you.

Lidia Perez: Great. Thank you. Have a good rest of the day.

John Koetsier: Absolutely. And for everybody else, thank you for being with us. Check out the podcast on the Mobile Heroes website, or on YouTube, or on your favorite audio podcast player. If you're a Mobile Hero, hey, connect with us. Peggy's around, I'm around. We're in the metaverse. I mean, aren't you? If you're a Mobile Hero, we want to hear from you. Thanks and have a great day.

Dec 8, 2021

Mobile Gaming Trends for 2022

How do you win in the most competitive space ever: mobile gaming? Well, you track 250 different features and components of games and see which ones tend to influence success.

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, Peggy Anne Salz & John chat with GameRefinery’s Head of Analytics Joel Julkunen. He’s not just a gearhead: he’s the former archery champ of the Finnish Air Force.

More importantly, he’s constantly tracking all the variables that go into mobile gaming success. And, of course, sharing that with us in MHU. We chat NFTs (hate ‘em? love ‘em?), we chat genre mashups and casual/mid-core crossovers, we chat social features, and of course we chat battle passes.

30 min

Joel Julkunen: You must find your own unique angle. It doesn't mean do something that nobody has done before, but do something that the data tells you that would be a good bet, and then give it your own unique twist, I would say. And that's the hardest one, I would say. That's the hardest one, but that's important, okay? Of course.

John Koetsier: How can you win in mobile gaming in 2022? Games are, of course, super interesting. They're kind of the canary in the coal mine. Change in innovation in mobile seems to happen fastest there. We're seeing mashups, we're seeing NFTs, we're seeing crossover tactics to and from casual and strategy games and other genres. We're seeing all kinds of innovation in measurement and monetization to enable growth in the era of App Tracking Transparency. We're going to dive into all of that with an expert today. Peggy, who's our expert?

Peggy Anne Salz: We're chatting today, John, with Joel Julkunen. He is the head of analytics at GameRefinery, so the data guy there. And GameRefinery, of course, provides feature-level analytics, market insights, benchmarks for the mobile gaming industry. As I said, he leads the analytics department there, so he's deep down in the data. But he's not just deep down in the data, John, because he's deep into gaming. Because what they do over there is they play and analyze games to figure out the features that are the winning features. He's done, of course, over 500 mobile games, played and analyzed them, but he's also, interestingly enough, the former archery champion of the Finnish Air Force, so he should hit the mark. Welcome, Joel. Great to have you.

Joel Julkunen: Thanks. Thanks, Peggy and John, and thanks for the introduction. That was great details there.

John Koetsier: Welcome. I mean, sheesh, wow, I guess you play games for a living. It's got to be easier than the Finnish Air Force. But there's probably some work in there as well, all of this analysis. Joel, let's start at the super high level. What's changing in games this year and into 2022? We're seeing these mashups, we're seeing collectibles, NFTs, ATT. What are the big changes coming?

Joel Julkunen: Yeah, there's, like you said, a lot of changes in 2021, and I would say on a high level, the biggest ones would be the rise of the live-ups, in general, then the kind of mashups of casual and mid-core genres becoming closer to each other in the spectrum of simple games and complex games. And then, of course, I would say, like, a bigger ever-emerging trend of social features taking place across all the genres in a more complex manner than before.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, you talked about some of the drivers. You know, it's just these mashups, these mix-ups. Things are changing, but what do you mean, first of all, by mashups? Let's try and unpack that.

Joel Julkunen: Yeah, yeah. Mobile games are special in that sense that we are seeing a lot of genre mashups, meaning that let's say we have a match-three game which is mashed up with RPG so we've got a puzzle RPG, or we have a driving game that has RPG elements. So, game developers are all the time coming up with different mixes of genres. And it is actually interesting in a sense that in mobile game world, the same features and game mechanics can be found in mid-core games, hardcore games, and casual games. And by kind of mixing and matching the best-proven mechanics and feature combinations, developers are able to find totally a new feel to their games. Kind of mixing up proven concepts of all that the players love and coming up with something new with them as a kind of result of these mashups.

John Koetsier: Peggy, it's like our just previous interview with SocialPoint. We were inventing games on that podcast, actually. We were mashing them up live, and we didn't even know it was a thing.

Peggy Anne Salz: We probably started a trend, actually.

John Koetsier: Don’t know about that.

Peggy Anne Salz: But it's really interesting if you think about it, John. This is a way of widening the net and sort of powering a different type of UA, and we'll get to why because one reason's, of course, tracking transparency. But, in a way, it powers a different UA. It attracts a different audience, and it creates, I would imagine, some other benefits. I mean, Joel, in your words, what would you say are the other benefits beyond just maybe some interesting gameplay and some cool titles that we're going to maybe think up here?

Joel Julkunen: Yeah, yeah. There are, of course, benefits. One big one would be if we look at player, kind of, motivations and why players play different games, their traditional view has been that if you have, let's say, a casual match-three game, you have a certain demographic that this game appeals to. And thinking about motivations, it's thinking, and solving, and kind of escaping the stressful world for a couple of seconds. Whereas if you take, like, a shooter game, the reason why people come to a shooter game might be very different.

When you have these mashups, like let's take an example Project Makeover, which was one of the best performing games in 2021, and this likely seems to be continuing. What they did, they mixed fashion games or fashion and decoration theme with the traditional swiping match-three game. What they were able to achieve by doing that was they were able to reach a broader audience, not only people who liked playing kind of match puzzle pieces and do that but also people who kind of like to be immersed to the game, like to express themselves to customizing their avatar, love fashion, love decoration, love collecting stuff. And that, we call it kind of metalayer, the fashion metalayer didn't have to break the match-three experience but it was kind of an addition to that. And by doing that, Project Makeover was not only able to reach to a new audience base based on that new motivation but also their players are already playing that game. They had the same, like, kind of motivation preferences, so there was an overlap. They did the research so that, “Hey, the players who play our game are also interested about this and this kind of collectibles and fashion.” And that also kind of increased the engagement of the players that they already had, so there's that aspect as well. So, from the motivation point of view, you are able to win in that sense.

John Koetsier: I love that. I really like that. Because there are so many games out there, you need to invent new niches, right? You need to invent a space where your game can fit. But also, guess what, sometimes, I do want that game that takes me out of the world for five minutes of fun, right? But, sometimes, I have more time and I can get more engaged, so then I can have both in the same game. It's genius.

Peggy Anne Salz: We were also discussing this offline, John, that was also interesting. An aspect of this, strategy games can be hard, right? And so you remove the anxiety by sort of giving someone a bit of a snippet that's more like a casual. It's almost a clickbait, you know? You start in a casual game, and then, whoa, you're off into strategy where it's a thinking kind of project, you know? But you pull people in, and it's kind of clever. It's really kind of clever. And I'm sure we'll be seeing more about that because there's another driver there, you know? You mentioned it yourself, and we talked about it just briefly, you know, responses to ATT, thinking of new ways to get people to do things very quickly. Because, of course, you have to measure it really fast. That window is very small. Tell me what's happening there and how marketers are approaching it, studios as well designing them, of course.

Joel Julkunen: Yeah. I mean, like you mentioned, in these mid-core games, what we have seen, they have started to implement kind of more casual features to their games. And like you pointed out, one of the key reasons probably is that since this changes in post iOS 14, it's much more difficult nowadays to find those, we call them, like, whale players. Like, the genre for strategy games like the hardcore ones, they make most of their money out of a small amount of players who spend a lot to the game. And nowadays, it's harder to kind of pinpoint those, and find those, and acquire those players.

So, one thing that games like State of Survival or Lords Mobile I think is the best example, what they have done is they have started to implement, like, more casual mechanics. Like you said, it's easier to get into the game of a hardcore, really complex strategy game, when you first are introduced to, well, simpler mechanics that kind of grab your attention. You get to know the game little by little, and then you kind of go down to the rabbit hole and see more.

Like in Lords Mobile, I think it’s actually nowadays called Lords Mobile: Tower Defense. It's already seven years old game, really, really successful for a strategy game. And now if you install the game and play it for the first time, it doesn't actually start from the strategy game core gameplay. It starts from a really casual kind of tower defense. That gameplay doesn't have anything to do with the actual Lords Mobile or the traditional Lords Mobile experience, the one where you are joining large alliances, and fighting other people around the globe in kind of huge maps, and train armies, and spend a lot of time kind of strategizing with your teammates. How it starts now is that, hey, you just put these troops into this field and it's almost autoplay, and it's really easy to get into, and then, little by little, you kind of get to be introduced to the real Lords Mobile. So, yeah, that's definitely a trend nowadays.

John Koetsier: It's kind of genius. Maybe you can have kind of the UA cost of a casual game, hypercasual game even. Get people in, get a broad array of people in, and you could still find in that mass those whales who will be incredible for you. You can't pinpoint them anymore. You can't really pinpoint them in the UA process as you could in the past. You've got to draw a wider net. Makes a ton of sense.

Peggy Anne Salz: And...

John Koetsier: Let's... Go ahead, Peggy.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was going to say and you have to be fast about it because it's that 24-hour postback. So, you need to be driving more activity in a shorter period of time. It's brilliant.

John Koetsier: Yup. You can stretch that postback period to seven days, but, I mean, that's really tough to optimize on, right? It's really challenging to optimize on. So, let's talk about NFTs. Obviously, they've exploded on the world in a lot of different ways and have caused, well, let's say differing opinions in a lot of ways as well. But there's a lot of innovation there. Dapper Labs is doing something super interesting with the NBA Top Shots, right? UFC, they've got some amazing brands there. What's happening with NFTs in the whole area of collectibles?

Joel Julkunen: Yeah. The NFTs, they are the hot topic at the moment. Like, everybody's talking about it. There's a huge amount of buzz going on. There's your skeptics saying that it’s [inaudible 00:11:55] It's not about the game, it's about making kind of quick bucks. And then there's, of course, people who see the potential and see that there is kind of a... If everything goes the way these people predict and see the world, there is the potential that it will change how players experience gaming and why they play completely. Of course, Axie Infinity, Highrise, the couple of titles now popping up, and all the big companies, Zyngas and EAs, are announcing that they are going to that area as well.

Of course, we have seen these buzzes before, like, when AR was big or when virtual reality came to the market for the second or third time. So, it's really hard to say what happens with NFTs because, of course, like you pointed out, there's still kind of, I would say, a label attached to them that it's just kind of a Ponzi scheme or people are just there to make money, trying to get those collectibles and sell it for a higher price, and none of those games are kind of showing any true innovation in terms of gameplay. Well, my view on that is that collectibles in mobile games are trending really heavily, and now I'm talking outside NFTs, like, the collectible mechanics themselves. 2021 has been a year where almost...well, most of the top casual games of different genres, social casino, board games, dice games have implemented collectible metalayers and collectible mechanics. And big ones as well like there's collectible events going on that you kind of really engage with that collectible album aspect of the game, so there's that. And people like Pokémon, people like to collect stuff.

So, it remains to be seen...I always say that if there's a game or a game company who can actually create a gaming experience and then tie the NFT aspects to that, I think that's the winning formula. Are we going to see it in 2022? Nobody knows. But at least talking purely from the collectible standpoint, the trends in the mobile game market are really heavily pointing to the direction that collectibles are the thing that people like, and they are one element that brings session-to-session progression, meaningful content for the gamers themselves, meaningful way to differentiate themselves in social aspects of any game. So, yeah, that's interesting. On GameRefinery, we'll be focusing and following that space, for sure.

John Koetsier: I sense a little bit of skepticism there but also a lot of interest, and that makes a ton of sense, right? I mean, trends are trends, fads are fads. NFTs are super hot, and also many people are dissing them. I mean, I've kind of wondered, Peggy, about making NFTs of each episode, right? Minting an NFT right here, you know? This picture, look at that smile on Joel. I mean, it's amazing. You know, NFT, boom, that's at least 10 Ether, right, Ethereum, I mean.

Joel Julkunen: [inaudible 00:15:18]

John Koetsier: So, I don't know about that, but we'll continue keeping an eye on that because, you're right, some people do like to collect stuff, and, digitally, one way of doing that is NFTs. There are multiple other ways as well, but, obviously, NFTs is a very interesting twist on collection and monetization, and we've seen Dapper Labs do that really, really well. I want to talk about social as well. Social's been around for forever, but it, like everything else intact, and especially mobile continues to evolve, you're seeing some innovation in social in gaming. What have you seen?

Joel Julkunen: Especially in casual space, 2021 has seen a rise in the amount of games adapting more...we call them, like, more complex social mechanics. And by more complex, I mean that although Candy Crush has always had, like, sending lives to your fellow players or something like that, but now what we're seeing is massive infusion of duel mechanics like teams or alliances. So, meaning, like, communities would play and players can join and then kind of have deeper engagement with similar-minded or players with similar playing styles. So, we saw that casual genres like social casino, match-three, board games, duel or team mechanics have been the biggest one.

And then it's usually also that once you implement those duel mechanics, it acts as a kind of cornerstone or foundation for other social elements like coop playing, coop competition, coop events, communal development efforts, so anything that kind of enhances the sense of community even further. So, that's what has been a big trend in 2021, and we see it continuing as we go to 2022. And also mentioning, like, hangout areas where you can just kind of not play the actual game, just meet people with your avatar and chat with them. That's something that actually haven't been yet as big phenomena in the West as it has been in the East, especially in China.

John Koetsier: I think we're hearing a mini Joel in the background talking about social.

Joel Julkunen: Yeah. Probably my daughter.

John Koetsier: That's wonderful.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was also going to say, I mean, one of the drivers, obviously, has to be the pandemic. But now that we have these elements of social, you know, you sort of wonder. Because that's what you do at GameRefinery. You look at the features, but then you think about, “Okay, what are these mix-ups, these mashups going to look like? What are companies going to do to stand out when everybody's doing this?” I mean, these are super popular features. Everyone has social. People are thinking about collectibles. And you see these mashups specifically in strategy and in social. And I just want to dive a little deeper into that for some examples of what they are, what's driving them, and, more importantly, I'd love to hear about how you're going to stand out in 2022 when everyone's riding that wave.

Joel Julkunen: Yeah. It tends to be, especially in mobile game, that when a big trend picks up, everybody's kind of hopping on the bandwagon, so how do you stand out from the crowd? That's a good question. I always say that when we talk about features on a kind of generic level, they’re not just features. They have blueprints or frameworks for some concept that you have. But your imagination is the limit that how do you then implement it? So, how do you balance, let's say, battle pass systems, or what kind of guild mechanics do you bring into your alliances, or how do you do it? Or with the mashups, you can do...a similar kind of mashup that everybody is doing, like, I don't know, mix a construction metalayer event in a social casino game. But, basically, it comes down to the implementation and innovation in that area.

So, following trends is really important and understanding the key feature is important because those are proven mechanics that players love and proven mechanics that work in your game. That doesn't mean that you have to do and balance them the same way that everybody is doing. So, I would say there is your kind of sweet spot that you listen to the market and look at the trends and what works in the market, and especially in your genre. And then you start to, you know, “Okay, how do I make this fit my game?” How do I make this, let's say, mashup metalayer to my game without alienating my current gamer base, without breaking the game so… So, there's [inaudible 00:20:14] the key to that.

And, of course, I have so many discussions with developers who asked me, “Hey, how can I differentiate in this space?” I always say that mobile games are perfect in a sense that you don't have to stick to your own genre. When you are looking at your competitive field and what your competitors are doing, don't only look at your own subgenre. Like, if you do a match-three game, don't only study match-three. Study the outer spheres as well. So, if you're doing a match-three game, study other casual games, what they are doing. Is there something that I can bring to my game? Or even go to the mid-core games like many of the casual game developers have done. Look at the other mechanics that engage certain types of players which are the motivations, and then look at your own game and look at how can I make it work here. Even better, look at the Chinese market and Japanese market. Bring features from there to West that people here don't know, for instance. That's what Fortnite kind of did when they introduced battle pass. That's actually just a variation of a couple of older Chinese monetization mechanics.

John Koetsier: Smart. Smart. So, I've heard that you track over 250 different types of features or components of games to see what leads to success. Can you give us a glimpse behind that curtain? What are some of those that you track?

Joel Julkunen: Yeah. Sure. Yeah, there’s a lot of features, like you said, 250 or so. We track almost anything ranging from, like, the really core mechanics of the game like how to play, do you play with one hand, two hand? How is the screen orientation, horizontal or portrait? All the way to social features like competitive PvPs, communal aspects true to acquirement mechanics like daily gifts, and login reward systems, and, of course, events, and everything, right? So, a lot of features. And as the system is dynamic or our taxonomy is dynamic, when we follow the market, when we find something new and exciting that we don't yet cover with our system, we then can add it to the taxonomy. Just to give you an example, I actually mentioned Fortnite. When battle pass became the hot topic or talk of the town, we were very quick to start, like, kind of following that feature, and after a month or two, all of our users got to see interesting data and insights about that feature, implementation, strengths, who is using it in China or Japan, and stuff like that. So, yeah.

John Koetsier: Nice.

Peggy Anne Salz: So, we talked about collectibles, talked about social, 250 features. You just don't even try to think that through, John, you know?

John Koetsier: It's too many.

Peggy Anne Salz: It's like that's one hell of a taxonomy. I'm just trying to imagine what it all is. But we want to talk about the future, so I want to get a better understanding of the features that are really, really interesting now, growing fast, going to be the ones that define 2022.

Joel Julkunen: Well, if I had to pick just one based on how hot it has been in 2021, I would say the battle pass system or season pass system, depending on who you ask, but mechanically it's the same. So, essentially, the one made famous by Fortnite in the West. So, basically, you have a season that lasts, like, one month. Through the season, you have tasks or objectives to do, and then you win rewards in your reward path. And then, of course, the gist of it is that if you want to get the premium rewards, usually including exclusive decorative items, or characters, or whatever, you have to purchase the battle pass with, of course, anything between $1 to $20, depending on the game. And then, of course, for that season, then you can... And you have to play then to get those rewards. And when the season ends, then a new season starts usually with the new content, with the new exclusive stuff, and you want to purchase again. So, that's the number one, and it has made its way from the mid-core or shooting games and now to all games. So, you can pick up a casual idle game and see it there. You can pick social casino games and see it there. You can pick match-three and see it there as well. So, that would be if I had to pick just one.

John Koetsier: That's a great insight. To be honest, that's one of the areas where I see stuff coming from the strategy or the mid-core level coming down to casual, maybe even hypercasual, not sure about that. And I'm like, “Hey, I hate that. I love this game. I spend two minutes on it five times a day. And, you know what, I'm just coming here for a hit of endorphins and a little break from what I'm doing, and now I have to think about it. I have to make decisions about a purchase. I have to…” you know? Maybe if I buy in, then I'm in the battle pass. I mean, it's this month or this week, and now I have to, like, you know, level up, and work hard, and, you know, earn, make it worthwhile. So, yeah, we'll see how that works. I'm sure it's doing great in terms of monetization, and I'm sure that's a great thing for some games. Others, I'm not so sold on.

However, we do have to bring this to a close. It has been amazing, by the way. It has been super insightful, really love having you. We ask every guest what are your top three tips, and I think what we're going to ask you specifically is what are your top three tips for mobile gaming marketers heading into 2022?

Joel Julkunen: Yeah. I would say, as I always say, fortunately, nowadays, everybody in the industry is following data. I would say that data is not only going to be your friend in 2022 but it's going to be essential that you follow the market. You have all the data available. Because everybody else, it's not anymore the same market that it was, let's say, eight years ago, seven years ago when I started kind of with GameRefinery. So now, that would be the number one. So, use all the data at your disposal, and, of course, use it wisely. That's one.

Then, for the marketers, if we're talking about, like, actual, like, marketing and UA function in a games company, I would say that working together with the game team, the developers, the cooperation between developers and the marketing and UA team is really important. And that's because, as we've seen, that you have to have seamless integration of those two teams so they'll both understand what they are doing. As LiveOps is really, really big at the moment, spitting out content, having these events, and then using those in a seamless way with the marketing team and with the UA campaigns, that's really important as well.

And third, I would say that even when you are following data and kind of looking at what the top games or top marketers are doing, try to find and you must find your own unique angle. It doesn't mean do something that nobody has done before, but do something that the data tells you that would be a good bet, and then give it your own unique twist, I would say. And that's the hardest one, I would say. That's the hardest one, but that's important, okay? Of course.

John Koetsier: Well, this has been amazing. This has been incredible. Really do appreciate your time. I have to ask one question. I mean, like, we said off the top, Peggy said off the top that you were the archery champion of the Finnish Air Force. What did you do in the Air Force?

Joel Julkunen: Well, in Finland, all males have to or are constricted in a way, so we have the compulsory military service that you have to…

John Koetsier: So sexist. So sexist.

Joel Julkunen: Well, there's debate on that as well, but, yeah, still, we are one of the few countries in Europe that still has that. And then you can serve in Navy, or Air Force, or the Army, and I chose Air Force. And I had some background in archery, and we had was kind of a playful competition. There's no, like, official archery championships of the Air Force, but, yeah, there was this competition I just happened to...with my superiors, and that was a great day for us. We were so green. It was, like, my third week in the Army, but it was great.

John Koetsier: Nice. Well, Peggy, you fly airplanes, and all of a sudden, you start flying games, I guess, or playing them.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. It's our top gun here with our top tips, John. I had to do it.

John Koetsier: Nice. Nice. Awesome.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely.

John Koetsier: Face mash coming up, by the way, on this. Tom Cruise face mash.

Peggy Anne Salz: Beware. It's coming. He means it. He means it. It's been great having you, Joel, and, you know, really telling us a bit more, shining a light on some of these mashups. They're exciting. I'd like to, you know, just imagine, John, what some of them could be. It's like that show we had where we were mashing them up in our mind and now we're being encouraged to do it even more so. I guess everything's open in 2022.

John Koetsier: Of course.

Peggy Anne Salz: Strategy comes to casual. We'll see maybe hardcore go to hypercasual. Who knows? It's all open. It's exciting.

John Koetsier: Maybe. Maybe.

Joel Julkunen: And thank you guys for having me. It was really a pleasure to be here.

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Wonderful. And next time, we have to see mini Joel, or Joelette, or whatever your daughter's name is as well. We got to see that. But I guess we'll also say is that if you are out there and you are a Mobile Hero, you know, and you should be the one we're talking to because you are amazing, and incredible, and well-spoken, and have great insights, and all that stuff, reach out to Peggy, reach out to me, and we'd love to chat with you as well. Until then, stay tuned on the audio podcast, on YouTube, and everywhere else, and thank you so much.

Nov 24, 2021

How To Win in Casual Games in 2022

CPIs are up almost 50%. ROAS, of course, is down. Competition is now global, and almost everything anyone could ever think of has been turned into a casual game?

So what do you do?

Well, maybe NFTs.

And, perhaps, acquisition for cross-promotion.

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat with Miniclip Director of Performance Marketing Jonathan Winters and Funorama Head of Business Development David Pich. We chat chess (yep!), maximizing player value, engagement, retention, NFTs, cross-promotion, and even a little iOS vs. Android.

Plus, we end with each expert’s top 3 tips for mobile marketers in casual games heading into 2022.

41 min

Nov 17, 2021

How SocialPoint Escaped A Creative Rut

How do you beat the best ad you’ve ever done? Last year SocialPoint lucked into their best ad ever and simply could not beat it. All they could create were variations on a theme, but with increasing creative fatigue, ads increasingly brought diminishing returns.

So Mobile Hero Danika Wilkinson built a process to systematize serendipity and become more creative on purpose. It worked, and as a result of that creative diversity, ROI increased 30% in just three months, and the team was able to increase retention by a further 25%.

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz go behind the curtain with SocialPoint’s product marketing manager and learn what makes this former Australian rugby journalist tick … and how she’s transformed marketing and creative production at SocialPoint.

24 min

Nov 15, 2021

How Frustrating Ads Helped This Game Hit Top-20 Most-downloaded in the USA

Should you have beautiful ads? Oddball ads? Funny ads? In-your-face ads? How about frustrating, impossible, annoying ads with puzzles that actually have no solution at all … and even feature a narrator making fun of your inability to solve them?

That path less traveled led to a top-download 20 placement for brain game app Impulse, built by a small team in Ukraine.

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, hosts Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier chat with Impulse Chief Marketing Officer Dariia Opanasiuk to learn more about her strategy, and more about her story. Dariia is an accidental marketer with two master’s degrees, neither of which are in business or marketing, and a super-successful app in one of the most competitive categories on the planet.

15 min

Nov 10, 2021

Holiday Marketing Wins and Fails

Cats make cameos and guests bring the jokes as we hit holiday marketing hard. Unfortunately it’s not Club Med kind of holidays, but end of year, new year’s, Halloween, Christmas, Hanukkah, and those kinds of holidays.

What works? What fails? And how do you cut through the noise of so much advertising competition?

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, we get serious. We get deep, and we chat with 3 experts:

Not only do we dive into pitfalls and opportunities, we quantify the holiday marketing opportunity, talk about timing, the impact of the global supply crunch, and segmentation by audience and geo.

We also ask each guest 4 critical questions, just for fun:

  1. Biggest marketing nightmare
  2. Most annoying industry pet peeve
  3. Most unexpected success
  4. Person you respect most in the industry

40 min

Oct 27, 2021

IDFA, Last-click & AB Testing

Maybe last-click attribution does suck and doesn’t represent reality. But just maybe it’s “good enough” to optimize on. We chat attribution, insights, AB testing, and more with Lenette Yap, Senior UA Manager at Inkitt.

Then we get into the really interesting stuff: naming conventions.

(Sound dull, I know, but we make it fun. And they are actually unbelievably important to get right.)

Along the way, we meet Dogtor Dre (you read that right) … the poodle with his own Instagram account, discuss why AB testing is awful and horrible and necessary, and chat about how and when marketers need to follow their guts.

36 min

Oct 20, 2021

Becoming the Boss in Mobile Marketing

You’re smart, you’re capable, and you’re ambitious. But how do you level up and grow your game and add some rocket boost to your career?

Start by checking out this podcast.

We ask two top women in tech how they did it: where they started, how they climbed the career ladder, what strategies and tactics they used, and how they enlisted support from their managers and mentors. Chatting with co-hosts Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier are:

Jade Worobec, Head of Performance Marketing at the Meet Group
Katie Gill, Head of Marketing at DREST

We chat about travel, mobile consolidation, and tell a few jokes.

55 min

Oct 6, 2021

Road Trip to Eastern Europe with Nakusi Games & Joom

What’s better than a road trip? And in COVID times, we’re still doing them virtually, visiting Eastern Europe to chat gaming with Nakusi Games and retail with Joom, a marketplace you may never have heard of that has over 350 million customers in 100+ countries.

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored we chat with:
Vladimir Ilchenko, UA Lead at Nakusi Games
Sergei Pustovetov, Traffic Manager at Joom

Our topics, acquisition, attribution, and localization. We also play Ad Win of the Week, give Peggy’s invisible bitcoin right back to her, chat about incrementality and media mix modeling, and discuss the biggest challenges in marketing mobile apps in Eastern Europe.

Plus, we have Mobile Heroes in the News, featuring:
Aurelie Genet @ Flo
Björn Videkull @ Bjorn Videkull Performance Marketing
Thomas Hopkins @ Superpeer
Jayne Peressini @ Dapper Labs

60 min

Oct 4, 2021

Alexander Ruban at Product Madness

How do you know when influencer marketing is working? How do you use influencer marketing to drive mobile user acquisition at scale?

In this Mobile Heroes Uncensored: Origin Story we dive deep with Alexander Ruban, UA Lead at Product Madness on influencer marketing, gaming, and attribution. We learn where he got his start, how he approaches influencer marketing, what works best, and how he measures effectiveness.

As always, Mobile Heroes Uncensored is hosted by John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz.

22 mins

Sep 21, 2021

Maximizing Subscription Revenue

The godfather of growth and two super women in growth from Stash (finance!) and Gymondo (fitness!) join co-hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz for a seriously fun episode on maximizing subscription revenue.

(OK, the “godfather of growth” is the guy who invented the Mobile Growth Stack. But he’s still pretty awesome.)

Our guests:
– Mobile Hero Kate Palmer, Director of Growth at Stash
Jenny Schmidt, Team Lead Social & Influencer Marketing at Gymondo
Andy Carvell, Partner & Co-Founder at Phiture

We chat about getting money back from Apple, acronyms no-one knows, winning invisible Bitcoins, stuff we should know but somehow just don’t, and most importantly, of course, subscription revenue. Top tips for subscriptions. Finding good users for subscription apps. Stopping churn for subscriptions. Pricing for subscriptions. Subscribing to subscriptions (ok, I’m lying now).

Plus, there’s no less than 3 amazing jokes in this episode. The guy who made them promises that this is true. (Of course, he’s also the guy who keeps promising guests free Bitcoin.)

48 min

Sep 13, 2021

Alexey Gusev at Goodgame Studios

Welcome to Mobile Heroes Uncensored, Origin Stories. In this premiere episode, we dive into the deep, dark, and twisted crevices of Alexey Gusev’s mind. He leads growth at Goodgame Studios, and has a very interesting way of boosting conversions to paying users by as much as 30% … just by selecting the right creative. He also tells a joke (!!) plays the guitar (!!) and earns an Invisible Bitcoin by being far, far, far too nice.

27 min

Sep 8, 2021

Roadtrip Germany: Delivery Hero, Flixbus, Soundcloud, & Yazio

Mercedes, Oktoberfest, and mobile apps are what Germany is known for, right? Well, sort of.

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored we chat with the top growth marketers at major German mobile first or mobile centric companies: Yazio, Soundcloud, Flixbus, and Delivery Hero. Our goal: drive great cars, drink great beer, and learn what makes apps successful in Germany. And, of course, what German mobile developers make better than anyone else. (We succeed in one of those ambitions.)

Co-hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat with:
– Vincenzo Serricchio, Global Head of Mobile Marketing at food ordering app Delivery Hero
– Sergio Palau, Online Marketing Manager at mobility & travel app FlixBus
– Dora Trostanetsky, Director of Growth Marketing at music & audio company SoundCloud
– Carolin Rohte, Head of Performance Marketing at nutrition & health app YAZIO

We chat about marketing superpowers, marketing kryptonite, we get their true confessions about ultimate fails, and we learn about mobile marketing in Germany: what works, what fails, and what outsiders don’t know.


Aug 25, 2021

Sam's Club, Walmart, retail apps, fail whales and the world's best BBQ sauce

Retail isn’t easy but mobile retail has grown enormously over the past 18 months. We chat with the head of product and growth marketing at Sam’s Club, part of one of the world’s largest retailers (yep, Walmart) and a former colleague, now retail app builder. We chat BBQ, augmented reality, growth post-COVID, and the vampires of the mobile world: QR codes.

– Drew Frost: Head of Product and Growth Marketing at Sam’s Club at Walmart
– Matt Hudson: founder of BILDIT, a mobile app e-commerce platform

As always, co-hosts John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz get their best tips about growth, retention, and mobile marketing strategy. We also discuss the role of mobile apps for bricks-and-mortar retailers, the most important parts of a retail app to highlight in advertising and marketing campaigns, and what is changing in mobile growth in 2021.

Lucky episode #13 … here we go.


Aug 11, 2021

Bumble user acquisition execs on growth, data, iOS 14.5, and the crazy, insane 2020s

My growth isn’t tanking … I’m doing an incrementality test!

If you’re one of the largest dating platforms on the planet, you probably know something about growth. So Peggy and John were super-happy to chat with Bumble director of growth marketing Morry Mitrani and senior growth marketing manager Solange Baki, along with Liftoff’s director of creative, Thomas Zukowski.

We chat about the ongoing changes/challenges/impacts of COVID, the marketing data apocalypse in iOS 14.5, how Bumble uses creative for targeting and conversions, and the challenges of modern attribution and marketing measurement.

We also chat about privacy, cross-platform, and how Bumble is expanding beyond dating to friends and work colleagues … and how Bumble has pioneered the ability to delete part of an app off your phone, instead of the entire and complete app.

In addition:

Mobile news:
Facebook AMM and a lawsuit that says Google and Facebook worked together, possibly illegally.

And… mobile heroes in the news, with funding, SPACs, explosive growth, promotions, and much, much more…
Etienne de Guébriant, Gazeus Games
Kartick Narayan, founder and CEO, Kilo
Melissa Lertsmitivanta, Marketing Director at
Kelvin Saputra, Performance Marketing Manager, Kredivo
Iain Russell, Head of Performance Marketing, Moneyhub

Our horrible, no-good, awfully bad, somewhat wonderful joke of the week!


Jul 27, 2021

Netflix. Gaming. Grindr. Aftermath of the IDFA. And SO. MUCH. MORE

The IDFA gave. Now it’s taking away. And what are we left with? Honestly, some degree of chaos in the mobile advertising market, with budgets fleeing iOS and stampeding Android.

But our panelists from Singular, AdColony, Liftoff, and Fyber highlight that in every apocalypse, there is a silver lining. Because smart marketers are now using contracyclical strategies to get cheap installs, steal a march, and beat the competition. And, yes, we also talk some privacy, some gaming competition for Apple Arcade and Google Play Pass.

One thing we absolutely do not do ever under any circumstances even just once is have any fun, tell any jokes, or embarrass any executives. Fingers crossed.

Our guests for this show:
– So-Eun Park, VP business operations, Fyber
– Avi Das, sales lead Americas, Liftoff
– Ron Koenigsberg, chief growth officer, Singular
– Alasdair Pressney, director of product, AdColony


Jul 15, 2021

The Future of Marketing Measurement with Babbel & Flexion Mobile

We have far too much fun with excellent guests talking about garbage metrics in this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored. Peggy Anne Salz and John chat with:

Sylvain Gauchet, who heads up Growth and Marketing at Babbel
Lior Barak, data strategist at Tale About Data
– Mobile Hero Bjòrn Videkull, Head of Performance Marketing at Flexion Mobile

Along the way one of your hosts starts dancing (the one who definitely shouldn’t), another one of the hosts tells jokes (OK, both of them do), and we chat about the hottest new area in dating apps, which isn’t dating at all, and how one gaming company is becoming a music label. We also dive into the future of marketing measurement, the most key metrics for mobile growth, and whether GAID/AAID will go the way of the IDFA.

And yes, due to popular demand … we have added outtakes.

1 hr 5min

Jul 2, 2021

Creativity, Winning, and Secrets of Game Marketing with Top Journalists

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored we get the top secrets of game marketing from Ludia Games’ Rose Agozzino, BoomHits CEO Jon Hook, and top games journalists: Dean Takahashi of GamesBeat and Dave Bradley of PocketGamer.

Along the way we find out what fictional games characters they would date.

And we invent a new game from scratch in real-time.

Also: tips for getting games journalists’ attention, when NOT to send press releases, and what you should do when top reporters are reviewing your games. We also chat some AR, marketing vs product in-game success, the most creative way to market a game, where the games industry is going, and where there are underserved markets in gaming.

1hr 6min

Jun 15, 2021

Segmentation & Engagement with CleverTap, Tier Mobility, and Delivery Hero

Experts from CleverTap, Tier Mobility, and Delivery Hero share insight on segmentation and engagement while hosts Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier dish on mobile news, mobile heroes, and … some very critical back-to-office protocol to utterly ignore as some companies start re-opening.
Who’s in episode 8 of Mobile Heroes Uncensored?

– Timothy Lange, head of CRM at Tier Mobility
– Marco Esposito, former Liftoff Mobile Hero and just out of Delivery Hero
– Dave Dabbah, chief marketing officer at CleverTap
– Simone Wong, CRM manager at Tier Mobility

They dish on engagement strategies and their top tips for user segmentation while also answering what they would do as the Queen of All Mobile or the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of iOS and … you get the point.

1hr 14min

Jun 2, 2021

Agencies & Mobile Advertising

In this episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored we learn what happened to the 3-martini lunch, why the Madmen aren’t in jail, and how to get your way in client meetings by being a powerlifter.

Peggy Anne Salz & John chat with Nadine Santana, Account Manager at Camelot, Bridget Hall, Director of Planning at M&C Saatchi Performance, and Liz Emery, Senior Director, Mobile + Ad Tech Solutions, Tinuiti. This all-female power panel shares the role agencies can play in mobile growth … and how agencies are adapting to stay relevant in the 2020s.

55 min

May 18, 2021

Playable Ads and Insider Tips on Getting Free Ad Campaigns

In this episode, Yoda tells us why playable ads are driving innovation and growth. Or it might be one of our freakishly awesome guests who are competing for some of Peggy’s Bitcoin. We chat with Akseli Virtanen of Traplight Games, Lomit Patel from IMVU, Tyler Black from Hyper Hippo, and Alexandra Vornle von Haagenfels, who has the longest name in recorded history and is the International Creative Manager at Liftoff.

Our focus: playable ads. What makes them work, what makes them fail, and where you should use them. Check it out!


May 4, 2021

Marketing Fitness Apps with TRIQ, 7Mind, and Admiral Media

Once again we gather 3 amazing mobile marketers and promise them free bitcoin for acting silly and spilling all their best tips. Of course, we never pay up. But we do get crazy-good insights into marketing fitness apps … and dirt on their biggest mistakes, including one that locked a client out of Facebook and got someone fired.

In this episode John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat with: Boris Manhart (CEO of TRIQ), Marta Vogel (7Mind), and Andre Kempe (Admiral Media).

We discuss fitness (or lack thereof), ATT in iOS 14.5 (everyone needs to show it, apparently), Dogecoin and Elon Musk, and we play a few games, including Ad Win of the Week and Marketing Mogul. Check it out, join the fun, and subscribe. Also, if you want to be on the show, reach out to Peggy and John on Twitter.


Apr 20, 2021

Ad Creatives with Gamesture, Lovoo, Gazeus Games & Liftoff

Video ads are the fastest-growing (we’ve got the numbers) and the most lucrative (just guessing on this one) sector of mobile advertising, and we dive into color theory and usage and pricing and how to build them and about 3.72% of everything else you need to know about mobile video advertising. Plus, of course, we play evil games and reveal all our guests’ deepest and darkest secrets, insecurities, and deep-seated vulnerabilities in a barely-functional we say “panel,” they say “group therapy session.”

Our guests, who outshine our soon-to-be-jobless hosts in every way imaginable except sheer animal sex appeal, include:Lukasz Kwiecien, Head of Marketing @ Gamesture, Pierre Strubelt, Senior Affiliate Marketing Manager @ Lovoo, Etienne de Guébrian, Head of UA @ Gazeus Games, and Deanna Ulrich, Manager, Ad Creative @ Liftoff.

1hr 2min

Apr 6, 2021

Post-COVID Strategies with Thimble, Pawp, Moneyhub and Acorns

2020 was a horrible year for the world, but as we got more virtual, many app verticals had a breakout year. How is that transitioning into 2021 in a confusing post-pandemic, still-pandemic, third-wave, partially-vaccinated reality? In addition to yanking their chains a little, we coax some amazing insight from Annica Lin, Director of Performance Marketing and CRM at Thimble, Roberto Salem, Head of Growth at Pawp, Iain Russell, Head of Performance Marketing at Moneyhub, and Kyle Sausser, Growth and Partnerships Manager at Acorns.


Mar 22, 2021

Creative Testing with Wooga, Product Madness and Playstudios

Here’s our second episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored, with John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz. As usual, we totally screw it up only to be saved by our horribly great guests: Jason Conger, Head of UA, Wooga; Claire Rozain, UA manager, Product Madness; Melanie Zimmermann, Head of Marketing, Wooga; Assaf Shalev, Head of Creative Marketing, Playstudios.

What we talk about, besides free Lambos and astrology? IDFA (yep, still on that meal ticket), creative (apparently it matters), craft beer (sounds better than it tastes), mobile news (really), Mobile Heroes in the news, dating, and yes, a whole lot of insight around how to win when you don’t have IDFA or granular device-level data anymore


Mar 3, 2021

IDFA with Fyber, Singular and InMobi

This very first episode of Mobile Heroes Uncensored is currently the best. And the worst. And it’s definitely the funniest, with the most awfully good guests too.

In this inaugural episode John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz chat to leaders from InMobi, Liftoff, Vungle, Singular, and Fyber and force them to reveal their deepest, darkest secrets, their ultimate fears and most private fantasies (ALL ABOUT THE INDUSTRY. WOW.) And yeah, we also talk IDFA and iOS 14 and why the best marketers won’t suffer.


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